9/11: FDNY Member Says "Definitely" Bombs in Towers?

[Hellbound]

That plate you see is a connector plate. See the large beam it's attached to? Imagine another beam that size on top. It was attached to the other half of that steel plate.

The upper portion of the beam was pushed to one side or another by the weight of the upper portions collapsing. That caused the sttel beam above to act as a lever, and more than capable of shearing that steel plate off (likely through extension/stretching) without bending it excessively.

The "white" you're seeing could be a number of things. First, that looks more like silver...places where the interior steel of the plate is exposed (as would be expected from a rough seperation, as in a tear/shear event). Even assuming it's something on the plate, it would not be unreasonable to assume that some of the massive amounts of falling debris could have caused it (such as a piece of drywall impacting and depositing bits of plater on the rough edges of the torn plate).

 

[azazal]

For refrence please note DanielsNews wtc7 debris4 & 3 the debris were still smoking and a fire truck is still putting water on the debris pile. The framework section is as it is in the other pictures.

See that's why I want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Back in post #379 you said

If you enlarge and center on the large hole in the Vorizon bldg. you can see this beam behind the framework section.

DanielsNews, wtc7, 9/11 and after, beam closeup

Then in post 383 you said

Go to DanielsNews.com and look at the picture i mentioned above. Note the blue discoloration.
This indicates high temperatures.

Is the picture http://danielsnews.com/index.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=255&fullsize=1 for WTC 7 or for the Verizon building? If it was the Verizon building, then how come there is no metion of explosive charges found during it's renovation?

 

[Christopher7]

That plate you see is a connector plate. See the large beam it's attached to? Imagine another beam that size on top. It was attached to the other half of that steel plate.

The upper portion of the beam was pushed to one side or another by the weight of the upper portions collapsing. That caused the sttel beam above to act as a lever, and more than capable of shearing that steel plate off (likely through extension/stretching) without bending it excessively.

The "white" you're seeing could be a number of things. First, that looks more like silver...places where the interior steel of the plate is exposed (as would be expected from a rough seperation, as in a tear/shear event). Even assuming it's something on the plate, it would not be unreasonable to assume that some of the massive amounts of falling debris could have caused it (such as a piece of drywall impacting and depositing bits of plater on the rough edges of the torn plate).

So you believe that this and several other plates broke off in a STRAIGHT line about 2" above the beam joint without stretching or deforming ?

Do you consider it possible that they were cut with a shape charge ?

 

[Hellbound]

So you believe that this and several other plates broke off in a STRAIGHT line about 2" above the beam joint without stretching or deforming ?

Do you consider it possible that they were cut with a shape charge ?

It's not a straight line.

You can see evidence of some deformation in the rough edge of the tear, as well as the peak along the tear line.

HAving seen the effects of cutting charges and shaped charges up close, I feel I can confidently say, categorically, that this was not the result of a cutting charge.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Cropped and zoomed area of interest

with color inversion

256 color

16 color

 

[Hellbound]

Thank you, Arkan.

If nothing else, we seem to have proven that my photo interpretation skills far outreach those of Christopher7.

 

[Christopher7]

It's not a straight line.

You can see evidence of some deformation in the rough edge of the tear, as well as the peak along the tear line.

HAving seen the effects of cutting charges and shaped charges up close, I feel I can confidently say, categorically, that this was not the result of a cutting charge.

The white stuff obscures the edge but if you look closely it is a STRAIGHT edge as are the other plates that "broke" 2" above the beam joint.

If you believe that all those plates could "break" in the same place and deny that those "breaks" were straight, then OK.
I respectfully disagree.

I have to go now but I'll leave you with this question:

Can you possibly believe that Washington D.C. was defenceless on 9-11, that there were no anti aircraft misles of any kind to protect our nations' capitol ?
I'll be back later to state why i believe there were.

 

[Hellbound]

The white stuff obscures the edge but if you look closely it is a STRAIGHT edge as are the other plates that "broke" 2" above the beam joint.

If you believe that all those plates could "break" in the same place and deny that those "breaks" were straight, then OK.
I respectfully disagree.

They weren't straight. See Arkan's posts.

I have to go now but I'll leave you with this question:

Can you possibly believe that Washington D.C. was defenceless on 9-11, that there were no anti aircraft misles of any kind to protect our nations' capitol ?
I'll be back later to state why i believe there were.

Being a member of the U.S. military, and having been to the Pentagon on a few occassions, as well as being familiar with the general strategy plans of most of our important areas, yes. I would be suprised if there were any anti-aircraft capabilities maintained on-hand. The typical thinking of the time was that any attack headed for CONUS would have adequate warning, and any needed assets could be quickly gathered from nearby bases (or pulled out of storage, I could imagine them having some hand-held AA missiles locked in an armoury somewhere). No one expected civillian planes to be the weapon. It was expected to be either a traditional terrorist attack (suicide bomber or truck/car bomb) or a military strike (fighters and/or bombers, if not ICBMs or similar).

I'm not really concerned with why you believe they were. Frankly, it doesn't matter why you beleived anything.

I woudl be interested in any actual evidence you have. And, as a note, conjecture and speculation do not equal evidence.

 

[DavidJames]

I'm not really concerned with why you believe they were. Frankly, it doesn't matter why you beleived anything.

I woudl be interested in any actual evidence you have. And, as a note, conjecture and speculation do not equal evidence.

I suspect he pull his evidence from the same source as other CTers.

Hint - bring your toilet paper.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

...I have to go now but I'll leave you with this question:

Can you possibly believe that Washington D.C. was defenceless on 9-11, that there were no anti aircraft misles of any kind to protect our nations' capitol ?
I'll be back later to state why i believe there were.

Not this argument again.

And around and around we go...

 

[Gravy]

Structural steel shearing, cracking, and splitting without bending significantly? Impossible!

It all depends on the forces involved, my friend.

Christopher7, you've been civil and all, so I don't want you to be offended by this. I do hope you'll think about it: you say you're a construction contractor, yet every time you say something about the material properties of buildings, you get it completely wrong. That worries me.

 

[Gravy]

Can you possibly believe that Washington D.C. was defenceless on 9-11, that there were no anti aircraft misles of any kind to protect our nations' capitol ?
I'll be back later to state why i believe there were.

I'm launching a preemptive strike.

A reminder: on September 11, 2002, portable missile batteries were temporarily placed near the Pentagon in case of an "anniversary attack." I guess all the regular missile batteries were down for maintenance.

Richard Clarke, from Against All Enemies:

The Secret Service and Customs had teamed up in Atlanta to provide some rudimentary air defense against an aircraft flying into the Olympic Stadium. They did so again during the subsequent National Security Special Events and they agreed to create a permanent air defense unit to protect Washington.

Unfortunately, those two federal law enforcement agencies were housed in the Treasury Department and its leadership did not want to pay for such a mission or run the liability risks of shooting down the wrong aircraft. Treasury nixed the air defense unit, and my attempts within the White House to overfule them came to naught. The idea of aircraft attacking in Washington seemed remote to many people and the risks of shooting down aircraft in a city were thought to be far too high.

Moreover, the opponents of our plan argued, the Air Force could always scramble fighter aircraft to protect Washington if there were a problem. On occasions when aircraft were hijacked (and in one case when we erroneously believed a Northwest flight had been seized), the Air Force did intercept the airliners with fighter jets.

We succeeded only in getting Secret Service the permission to continue to examine air defense options, including the possibility of placing missile units near the White House. Most people who heard about our efforts to create some air defense system in case terrorists tried to fly aircraft into the Capitol, the White House, or the Pentagon simply thought we were nuts.

 

[Gravy]

Christopher7, you see straight lines at the top of these splice plates?

Contractor licence and business registration, please. Take it out of your wallet, please. Thank you. How much have you had to drink today, sir?

 

[Garrette]

It may be the only time I post in this thread as I'm not as technically knowledgeable as the others here, but I'll chime in on three things:

1. Those edges are undeniably NOT straight. Insisting otherwise is evidence of a lot, but not of a conspiracy.

2. My experience with the aftermath of shaped charges is limited, but not zero: The edges of those beams do not match my experience or expectations.

3. As a long time member of the military myself, and not being unfamiliar with the facilities in and around D.C., I second Huntsman. There were no anti-aircraft sites around the Pentagon, the Capitol Building, or the White House. AA sites are damnably rare here.

 

[azazal]

hmmm, guess my google-fu is weak. Does anyone have a picture of a beam that was cut with a charge? Quick and easy way to disprove C7 claim.

 

[Pardalis]

I have to go now but I'll leave you with this question:

Can you possibly believe that Washington D.C. was defenceless on 9-11, that there were no anti aircraft misles of any kind to protect our nations' capitol ?
I'll be back later to state why i believe there were.

Do you know what this is called?

It's called moving the goalposts.

Let's keep this discussion on one topic at a time. Does this mean that you acknowledge that you no longer have enough proof that the WTC towers and WTC7 were brought down by demolition charges?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

hmmm, guess my google-fu is weak. Does anyone have a picture of a beam that was cut with a charge? Quick and easy way to disprove C7 claim.

Bomb disposal:
http://www.air-and-space.com/20020624 China Lake Explosive Ordnance Disposal.htm

Specifically: http://www.air-and-space.com/20020624 China Lake/4 16 Linear shape charge l.jpg
http://www.air-and-space.com/20020624 China Lake/4 28 Linear shape charge I-beam cut l.jpg

 

[Belz...]

Can you possibly believe that Washington D.C. was defenceless on 9-11, that there were no anti aircraft misles of any kind to protect our nations' capitol ?

Yes. Yes I can.

 

[azazal]

Bomb disposal:
http://www.air-and-space.com/20020624 China Lake Explosive Ordnance Disposal.htm

Specifically: http://www.air-and-space.com/20020624 China Lake/4 16 Linear shape charge l.jpg
http://www.air-and-space.com/20020624 China Lake/4 28 Linear shape charge I-beam cut l.jpg

I had found those, I was hoping for a cross cut. Damn thing is, I've seen close up on Discovery Channel shows on CD, but not finding anything handy on the web

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I had found those, I was hoping for a cross cut. Damn thing is, I've seen close up on Discovery Channel shows on CD, but not finding anything handy on the web

Ditto. Not much under the images, and for the web (once 911 sites were filtered out) there were just pdf's of engineering docs.