9/11: FDNY Member Says "Definitely" Bombs in Towers?

[kookbreaker]

In post 125 pg 4 Gravy posted a picture of a section of wtc7 framework pointing out where it sheared off.
Since steel bends and doesen't just break off, these beams must have been cut.

Wrong,

Metal does sheer and break very well. Ask any fencer who has broken a blade.

 

[sleahead]

the following is not my belief, I am a Debunker, but to play devils advocate, this is how the CTers will reply to your posts...

CTer:
Yes, what you say may be true, but that is why the govt used Thermite, which does not emitt loud detonation sounds when it cuts the steel. Thermite is also the reason for the molten steel. Professor Steven Jones has done experiments which conclusively show the presence of Thermite in the WTC rubble.

Of course the above is Shaite, incorrect unprovable nonsense, but it is how they will answer you...

Perhaps I'm not up to date with the theories of Professor Jones, but I thought his theory involved the use of both thermite and explosives - thermite to weaken the structure and explosives to finish the job. However, in the absence of any seismographic evidence of explosions, is Jones now proposing a theory involving thermite alone?

 

[Christopher7]

Wrong,

Metal does sheer and break very well. Ask any fencer who has broken a blade.

There's a huge difrence between a fencing blade and steel plate.

Are you actually saying that all these steel plates snaped and broke off ?

Go to DanielsNews.com and look at the picture i mentioned above. Note the blue discoloration.
This indicates high temperatures.

 

[gumboot]

What's the deal with Sentinel here, if I may ask? Having skimmed through the thread, it's not clear to me.

(I hope this query does not violate any rules, I'm just genuinely curious but can't make heads nor tails of it from skimming this thread and thought perhaps this would be an efficient way of cutting to the chase, as it were.)

I stand ready to be corrected,

But as I recall he is an Auxillary Fireman in New York. He seems to believe in a degree of CT - at least as far as he believes there were bombs or explosives inside the Towers that caused/contributed to their collapse.

However he is most vocal in resisting the Loosers and their antics at Ground Zero. He does not consider the site where nearly 3,000 people died to be appropriate for their politics. He also seems to be pretty vocal in general about the poor state of FDNY and the lack of support they have from NYC.

He tends to pop in now and then and drop off a few lines that can be hard to decipher.

Hopefully he will pop in and correct any errors I have made above.

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

There's a huge difrence between a fencing blade and steel plate.

Are you actually saying that all these steel plates snaped and broke off ?

There's less difference between a fencing blade and a steel plate than there is between clashing two blades together and ripping a 110 floor build apart.

-Andrew

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

There's a huge difrence between a fencing blade and steel plate.

Are you actually saying that all these steel plates snaped and broke off ?

Go to DanielsNews.com and look at the picture i mentioned above. Note the blue discoloration.
This indicates high temperatures.

Steel plates can, and do, shear:
http://www.efunda.com/processes/metal_processing/stamping.cfm

Shear strength in structural engineering is a term used to describe the strength against the type of structural failure where a component fails by shearing when it splits into two parts that slide past each other. The shear strength of a component is most important for beams but also relevant for e. g. plates. In a reinforced concrete beam, the main purpose of stirrups is to increase the shear strength.

Source

Shear Strength
The stress required to produce fracture in the plane of cross section, the conditions of loading being such that the directions of force and of resistance are parallel and opposite although their paths are offset a specified minimum amount.

Source

 

[Christopher7]

Steel plates can, and do, shear:
http://www.efunda.com/processes/metal_processing/stamping.cfm

Source

Source

In construction, shear strength is gained by adding diagonal members to keep a wall from collapsing to the side.

Your first quote is about a hydrolic press shearing (cutting) a piece of steel
Your second quote is about 2 parts slide past each other
Edit to correct: Your third quote is about a fracture in a plane of a cross section
Shear strenght has nothing to do with steel plates breaking

Either these steel plates were cut or they broke off.

 

[kookbreaker]

There's a huge difrence between a fencing blade and steel plate.

Your comment was "Since steel bends and doesen't just break off"

Steel bends and eventually breaks.

Are you actually saying that all these steel plates snaped and broke off ?

You once again underestimate the sheer amount of forces at work during the collapse. Darn right there will be shearing and breakage.

 

[kookbreaker]

There's less difference between a fencing blade and a steel plate than there is between clashing two blades together and ripping a 110 floor build apart.

-Andrew

Fencing blades most often break when they strike their intended target. There is often a large amount of energy focused on a very small footprint. Steel's flexibility in this case is the reason it is used and has never been replaced by any other material.

But steel is not magic, and with enough force it will sheer off. The forces required for this, even when scaled up, are much, much less than the energy released during the collapse of the towers.

 

[Christopher7]

Fencing blades most often break when they strike their intended target. There is often a large amount of energy focused on a very small footprint. Steel's flexibility in this case is the reason it is used and has never been replaced by any other material.

But steel is not magic, and with enough force it will sheer off. The forces required for this, even when scaled up, are much, much less than the energy released during the collapse of the towers.

First of all we're talking about wtc7, not the towers.
Second we're talking about steel plates not fencing swords.

There's no sign of streatching or bending here. Steel will bend before it breaks.

Are you saying that all these plates just broke off without deforming at all?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

In construction, shear strength is gained by adding diagonal members to keep a wall from collapsing to the side.

Your first quote is about a hydrolic press shearing (cutting) a piece of steel
Your second quote is about 2 parts slide past each other
Edit to correct: Your third quote is about a fracture in a plane of a cross section
Shear strenght has nothing to do with steel plates breaking

Either these steel plates were cut or they broke off.

Shearing, as demonstrated in the first link and expanded upon in the subsequent links, is one of the methods of failure.

Here is info on plain old breaking:
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/education/calc-init/static-beam/material.html
http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/l...bending mechanical properties shear -tensile" (pdf file)

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

First of all we're talking about wtc7, not the towers.
Second we're talking about steel plates not fencing swords.

There's no sign of streatching or bending here. Steel will bend before it breaks.

Are you saying that all these plates just broke off without deforming at all?

The beams in your pic show both deformation and breakage.

I don't know if anyone else had/has trouble with the original link, if so here it is http://danielsnews.com/index.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=255&fullsize=1

 

[Cuddles]

First of all we're talking about wtc7, not the towers.
Second we're talking about steel plates not fencing swords.

There's no sign of streatching or bending here. Steel will bend before it breaks.

Are you saying that all these plates just broke off without deforming at all?

Are you saying that breaking isn't deforming?

 

[kookbreaker]

First of all we're talking about wtc7, not the towers.

It is still a humungous amount of energy.

Second we're talking about steel plates not fencing swords.

Steel does not magicly gain extra properties as it scales up. It merely takes more energy to cause the same effects.

There's no sign of streatching or bending here. Steel will bend before it breaks.

Are you saying that all these plates just broke off without deforming at all?

You are wrong. The first pics you referenced were on Gravy's page 4 post. The columns are bent. The rest have shown similar signs.

 

[Christopher7]

The beams in your pic show both deformation and breakage.

I don't know if anyone else had/has trouble with the original link, if so here it is http://danielsnews.com/index.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=255&fullsize=1

Thanx for the link. Yes the beam is bent but the plate "broke" in a straight line. No streatching or tearing. Also note the blue discoloration = heat: and what's that white stuff?
If this plate broke off the edge would be deformed not straight and woulden't produce that white stuff. It might produce enough heat to turn the metal blue but only a expert could say.

 

[DavidJames]

If this plate broke off the edge would be deformed not straight and woulden't produce that white stuff.

Why don't you tell us about your background, education, work experience, that kind of thing which leads you to these conclusions?

 

[Christopher7]

Why don't you tell us about your background, education, work experience, that kind of thing which leads you to these conclusions?

This is not rocket science. It doesn't take any expertice to see that the steel plate was cut in a clean straight line. Further, if you look at the other beams in the framework section (DanielsNews wtc7 debris2) they were all cut at the same place (about 2" above the end of the beam) and how do you explain that white stuff?

 

[DavidJames]

This is not rocket science. It doesn't take any expertice...

Thanks, that's what I thought.

 

[azazal]

Thanx for the link. Yes the beam is bent but the plate "broke" in a straight line. No streatching or tearing. Also note the blue discoloration = heat: and what's that white stuff?
If this plate broke off the edge would be deformed not straight and woulden't produce that white stuff. It might produce enough heat to turn the metal blue but only a expert could say.

Pardon my ignoramce, I just want to make sure we're on the same page here. We're talking about the beam on the far left of the picture, correct? And what is the context of this picture? Was is taken on the 11th, a few days after when clean up had started?

 

[Christopher7]

Pardon my ignoramce, I just want to make sure we're on the same page here. We're talking about the beam on the far left of the picture, correct?
ans) yes

And what is the context of this picture? Was is taken on the 11th, a few days after when clean up had started?

For refrence please note DanielsNews wtc7 debris4 & 3 the debris were still smoking and a fire truck is still putting water on the debris pile. The framework section is as it is in the other pictures.