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Is College Bull****? I think it is.

Lurker said:
I am really surprised about this. Is it true? I know that certain projects require Professional Engineer licenses but they are usually structural in nature. Up in Detroit, for example, I bet fewer than 5% of hte automotive engineers are Professional Engineers (PE's).
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In my state it is.

Alabama Code (1975):

§ 34-11-1. Definitions.

For the purposes of this chapter, the following words and
phrases shall have the respective meanings ascribed by this
section:

(1) BOARD. The State Board of Licensure for Professional
Engineers and Land Surveyors, provided for by Section
34-11-30.

(2) ENGINEER INTERN. A person who has qualified under
subdivision 2 of Section 34-11-4, and who, in addition, has
successfully passed an eight-hour written examination in the
fundamental engineering subjects as provided in Section
34-11-6, and who has been certified by the board as an
engineer intern.

(3) ENGINEER or PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER. A person who, by
reason of his or her special knowledge of the mathematical
and physical sciences and the principles and methods of
engineering analysis and design, acquired by engineering
education and engineering experience, is qualified to
practice engineering as hereinafter defined and has been
licensed by the board as a professional engineer.

(4) LAND SURVEYOR INTERN. A person who has qualified under
subdivision (4) of Section 34-11-4, has passed an
examination in the fundamental land surveyor intern
subjects, pursuant to this chapter, and who has been
certified by the board as a land surveyor intern.

(5) LAND SURVEYOR or PROFESSIONAL LAND SURVEYOR. A person
who has been duly licensed as a professional land surveyor
by the board established under this chapter, and who is a
professional specialist in the technique of measuring land,
is educated in the principles of mathematics, the related
physical and applied sciences, the relevant requirements of
law for adequate evidence and all requisites for surveying
of real property, and is qualified to practice land
surveying as defined in subdivision (8).

(6) PRACTICE and OFFER TO PRACTICE. Any person shall be
construed to practice or offer to practice engineering or
land surveying, within the meaning and intent of this chapter,
who offers to or does as a profession practice any branch of
engineering or land surveying; or who by verbal claim, sign,
advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way represents
himself or herself to be a professional engineer or a
professional land surveyor, or through the use of some other
title implies that he or she is a professional engineer or a
professional land surveyor; or who represents himself or
herself as able to perform or who does perform any engineering
or land surveying service or work or any other service
designated by the practitioner which is recognized as
engineering or land surveying.

(7) PRACTICE OF ENGINEERING. Any professional service or
creative work, the adequate performance of which requires
engineering education, training, and experience in the
application of special knowledge of the mathematical,
physical, and engineering sciences to such services or
creative work as consultation, testimony, investigation,
evaluation, planning, design and design coordination of
engineering works and systems, planning the use of land and
water, performing engineering surveys and studies, and
the review of construction or other design products for
the purpose of monitoring compliance with drawings and
specifications; any of which embraces such services or
work, either public or private, in connection with any
utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment,
processes, work systems, projects, and industrial or
consumer products; equipment of a control, communications,
computer, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or
thermal nature, insofar as they involve safeguarding life,
health, or property; and including other professional
services necessary to the planning, progress, and completion
of any engineering services.

a. Design coordination includes the review and
coordination of those technical submissions prepared by
others, including, as appropriate and without limitations,
consulting engineers, architects, landscape architects,
land surveyors, and other professionals working under the
direction of the engineer.

b. Engineering surveys include all survey activities
required to support the sound conception, planning, design,
construction, maintenance and operation of engineered
projects, rights-of-way and easement acquisitions relative
to the centerline of the project. Engineering surveys may
be used to locate, relocate, establish, reestablish, layout
or retrace any road, right-of-way, easement or alignment
relative to the centerline of the project. Additionally,
engineering surveys may be performed to determine areas,
volumes or physical features of the earth, elevation of all
real property, improvements on the earth and the
configuration or contour of the surface of the earth or the
position of fixed objects thereon by measuring lines and
angles and applying the principles of mathematics. All
engineering surveys shall exclude the surveying of real
property for the establishment of any property line or land
boundaries, setting of corners or monuments, and the
dependent or independent surveys or resurveys of the public
land survey system.

c. The term shall not include the practice of
architecture except such architectural work as is
incidental to the practice of professional engineering; nor
shall the term include work ordinarily performed by persons
who operate or maintain machinery or equipment.

....

and

§ 34-11-2. Practice of engineering and land surveying regulated.

(a) No person in either public or private capacity shall practice or
offer to practice engineering or land surveying, unless he or she shall
first have submitted evidence that he or she is qualified so to practice
and shall be licensed by the board as hereinafter provided or unless he
or she is specifically exempted from licensure under this chapter.

(b) In order to safeguard life, health, and property, and to promote
the public welfare, the practice of engineering in this state is a
learned profession to be practiced and regulated as such, and its
practitioners in this state shall be held accountable to the state and
members of the public by high professional standards in keeping with the
ethics and practices of the other learned professions in this state. It
shall be unlawful for any person to practice or offer to practice
engineering in this state, as defined by this chapter, or to use in
connection with his or her name or otherwise assume, use, or advertise
any title or description including, but not limited to, the terms
engineer, engineers, engineering, professional engineer, professional
engineers, professional engineering, or any modification or derivative
thereof, tending to convey the impression that he or she is a
professional engineer unless the person has been duly licensed or is
exempt from licensure under this chapter. A person whose firm name shall
have contained the word "engineer," "engineers," or "engineering," or
words of like import, for more than 15 years before September 12, 1966,
shall not be prohibited from continuing the use of such word or words in
his or her firm name.

...

I cannot speak to whether this or something similar is applicable in any other state.

AS
 
AS:

I would be willing to bet that fewer than 10% of the engineers in your state are PEs. I wonder how that law applies to them and if they are violating it or if they don't refer to themselves specifically as Professional Engineers that they skirt it. You're the lawyer, what do you say?
 
JamesDillon said:
That makes a lot of sense. In my last year of college I worked as an R.A. on a freshman floor in the honors dorm, and Dustin's attitude and comments have reminded me since the opening post of the attitude exhibited by a lot of those ignorant kids who thought that because they did well in high school and read a few books, they knew more about the world than anyone else and these know-it-all college professors had nothing to teach them. Usually these kids develop a more mature sense of perspective and humility after getting slapped down hard in the first semester, but I suppose, as this thread illustrates, that this delusion of infallibility could be maintained if one of these misguided honors kids were to skip college altogether.
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And, in many of those high schools, (I can speak only for one state - governed by a plant) those "honors" (and a p, purposefully low-cased) kids are not Honors or A P level, they are put/allowed in the classes because: it looks good on the schools data sheets, parents want them in the classes because it looks good on the students' data sheets/transcripts, schools want (I'm quoting on this one) students to get a sample of the college work they will be facing. Fortunately, teachers are never expected to dumb down the courses to regular level so at least some of the unready can pass. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (At one school a few years ago, over 150 students took AP courses - data low to avoid any possible ID of school -and slightly less than 1% passed the AP test.:jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp)
 
AmateurScientist said:
In my state it is.
...
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What do they call the guy who drives the train?

54344f5d9f901e8f.jpg
 
Lurker said:
AS:

I would be willing to bet that fewer than 10% of the engineers in your state are PEs. I wonder how that law applies to them and if they are violating it or if they don't refer to themselves specifically as Professional Engineers that they skirt it. You're the lawyer, what do you say?
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I could be wrong, but my understanding is the PE is a subset of licensed engineers. I realize the statute almost makes it sound as if they are synonymous, but they are not. Again, my understanding, which may be wrong, is that PE is a designation above and beyond being a licensed engineer, and requires more rigorous examination and/or experience.

Most of the engineers in my city, which is chock full of them due to our heavy dependence upon the aerospace and electronics industries, are EEs, MEs, CEs, or Aerospace Engineers. How many have licenses is something I simply don't know. It may be the case that if they are employed by a corporation or firm that operates under someone's engineering license, then they are OK legally. I've never investigated the issue in depth.

I didn't mean to create a side issue or confuse anything by mentioning engineers.

AS
 
What is a "kidaber" anyway...?

I've tried Google, but out of the 4ish hits I get, one is in Polish, another is a German user name and the rest are from Planet X.
 
CFLarsen said:
What is a "kidaber" anyway...?

I've tried Google, but out of the 4ish hits I get, one is in Polish, another is a German user name and the rest are from Planet X.
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It's the way that the intellectual and physical elite spell the word "cadaver". Anyone who finds this funny is obviously a complete moron who is not worth replying to. ;)
 
brodski said:
It's the way that the intellectual and physical elite spell the word "cadaver". Anyone who finds this funny is obviously a complete moron who is not worth replying to. ;)
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You sure?

I thought that it was a device to help children achieve a six-pack.
 
JLam said:
Dammit, why must someone come in and be articulate when I'm trying to fight on Dustin's level?

:p

Seriously Dustin, if you've got any good arguments left after reading that post from AS, I'd be very interested to hear them.
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Ha ha. Thanks for the kind words, JLam.

AS
 
To address the point of college being too expensive, let me tell you what I did. I went to my local community college for the first two years and earned an Associate of Arts degree that was transferable to any four-year college and fulfilled all of the general education requirements. Then I went to a four-year college to complete my degree. If you're worried about the "stigma" of a community-college education, the degree you get from the four-year college doesn't look any different from anyone else's who attended the school the whole four years. I saved tons of money doing that! (And with the grants and scholarships I, a poor white girl, got, I actually had enough left over after paying tuition at the community college to buy books, etc.) And I felt like I got a pretty good education there, too. Small classes, etc.

I believe that slingblade's example of how much her education was costing her and how much aid she was getting was for a semester, not that she was claiming that's all it cost her for her entire education. But I could be wrong there.

And finally, Dustin, shame, shame, shame for "reporting" a fellow poster for "breaking the rules" because they said some personally insulting things to you. Reminds me of the horrible kids back in grade school who would run crying to the teachers and tattle on you if you did anything wrong. They never had any friends, either...

You may now feel free to report me, too. I took my share of punishment in school (and that was when they still allowed corporal punishment!), so I think I can take it.

P.S. You said that, in reading my past posts, I was the last person who should be criticizing your spelling. Can you provide an example, please, as I pride myself on my spelling and grammar. I'd like to learn from my mistakes. Thank you for your help in my process of self-correction.
 
wolfgirl said:
To address the point of college being too expensive, let me tell you what I did. I went to my local community college for the first two years and earned an Associate of Arts degree that was transferable to any four-year college and fulfilled all of the general education requirements. Then I went to a four-year college to complete my degree. If you're worried about the "stigma" of a community-college education, the degree you get from the four-year college doesn't look any different from anyone else's who attended the school the whole four years. I saved tons of money doing that! (And with the grants and scholarships I, a poor white girl, got, I actually had enough left over after paying tuition at the community college to buy books, etc.) And I felt like I got a pretty good education there, too. Small classes, etc.

I believe that slingblade's example of how much her education was costing her and how much aid she was getting was for a semester, not that she was claiming that's all it cost her for her entire education. But I could be wrong there.

And finally, Dustin, shame, shame, shame for "reporting" a fellow poster for "breaking the rules" because they said some personally insulting things to you. Reminds me of the horrible kids back in grade school who would run crying to the teachers and tattle on you if you did anything wrong. They never had any friends, either...

You may now feel free to report me, too. I took my share of punishment in school (and that was when they still allowed corporal punishment!), so I think I can take it.

P.S. You said that, in reading my past posts, I was the last person who should be criticizing your spelling. Can you provide an example, please, as I pride myself on my spelling and grammar. I'd like to learn from my mistakes. Thank you for your help in my process of self-correction.
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Same here, only I'm half white, and I didn't get the AA, I just straight transferred. Out here, the CCs are pushing to get the students into a four year. Not only that, by filling out the FAFSA, which determines aid based on income, not race, I pretty much have a free ride to one of the best schools in the country.

Not bad for a former drop out, I'd say.
 
Katana said:
You sure?

I thought that it was a device to help children achieve a six-pack.
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Interestingly, (or more correctly, boringly), I had a cat named Gwyneverre or something spelled similarly. My brother used to bring his kids over to my house and they would chase the cat all over the house saying "Gid-a-beer, Gid-a-beer!" I usually obliged them by popping a cool one for myself. (Not for the kids, of course, you sick bastards!)
 
JLam said:
That's because you're an idiot. A knuckle dragging, mouth breathing idiot....................
Dolt.
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The reply quoted above is meant for Dustin.

Would some of you truly, in all honesty, like this forum as much if there weren't a few mavericks around that pop such thought provoking threads as this? Do you truly want to read threads where some genius says 1 + 1 = 2, so that everyone in the forum can agree with you?
 
Iamme said:
Would some of you truly, in all honesty, like this forum as much if there weren't a few mavericks around that pop such thought provoking threads as this?
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Thought-provoking is not the same as controversial, which in turn is not the same as stupid.

I agree that it can be boring to read threads and fora where everyone seems only to post truisms. But a statement can be true without being a truism -- and similarly, a statement can be so false that its converse is an obvious truism and you as the reader end up losing respect for the fool who posted it.

Reading endless repetitions of 2+2=4 may not be interesting. But the solution isn't to find some moron to post 2+2=5. Because that's not "thought-provoking," but merely incorrect.
 
I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread so I'm sorry if all of this has already been said but......

Apart from those subjects which require access to expensive or controlled equipment to complete (like, say, medicine where having a cadaver in your home to practice on is frowned upom) then there is no reason why an exceptional person with access to a good library could not acquire a similar level of knowledge in a field as a graduate.

A classified degree from an accredited institution is however a good shorthand way for an employer to assess the level of knowledge and effort you have put into your studies.

It'd be much harder to establish whether this is the case if you are just claiming that knowledge.

It's the same as work experience. Claiming n years experience working for a company the employer has heard of, or having industry recognised qualifications makes it much easier for them to determine how good your experience is.

If I have 100 qualified applicants and one person who claims to have similar qualifications then I'm unlikely to invite them to interview. of course I could be passing up an exceptional candidate but I'll just have to take that risk.

If you're an unexceptional candidate then the support you get from a university and the facilities they have there will greatly assist you in achieving your goals.
 
Dustin said:
...completely comprehendible and the errors I make are extremely small....
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I hope you don't make any of your "extremely small" errors when you're practising unlicensed basement neurosurgery.

Cpl Ferro
 
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