Op-tion-al il-lu-sions

Occasionally on my visit to the library I hit a bonanza and this last visit was, I think, such an occasion. I borrowed Matthew Arnold’s book “Essays in Criticism”. I have only read the first chapter “The Function of Criticism at the Present Time” but find that I cannot go two paragraphs without seeing several intellectual ‘gems’ that I must pursue with gusto.

Matthew Arnold 1822-1888 had four significant literary periods in his life. In the 1850s we was a poet, in the 60s a literary critic, in the 70s religious and educational writings, and in 80s he returned to criticism and essays.

Arnold is, I think, most recognized as a critic. He claims that the challenge to criticism is disinterestedness! Criticism can show disinterestedness best by keeping aloof from the practical view of things; by the free play of the mind on all subjects upon which it touches. “Its business is,…simply to know the best that is known and thought in the world, and by in its turn making this known, to create a current of true and fresh ideas…and to leave alone all questions which will never fail to have due prominence given to them”.

The world is full of partisan and emotional criticism, right and left. It is filled with various sound bites and bumper stickers advocating nostrums that are promoted with bluff, bluster, and bravado. We, who are of the critical thinking mind, should remain disinterested to such malarkey and try to take the path less traveled. To take the path of disseminating truth as we can perceive so as to lay a foundation for new ideas with new approaches to old problems.

The disinterested critique approach must recognize that its approach is long range resulting in significantly large rewards if successful. This approach creates and nourishes fresh new foundations for the structure of new ideas. This approach lays down a foundation of intellectual grounding that provides for a solid structure but, of course, it will be a painful activity because emotional rage seems to be the order of the day and that rage will express its anti-intellectualism by focusing attacks on those who seek to make a different way.

Do you think that the roll of critic is similar to the role you call skeptic?
 
I don't know. I haven't read Matthew Arnold. It sounds to be a constructive criticism that carries with it an alterantive to old beliefs.
Skepticism may be a subset of this activity. One can say she's a "Skeptic."
If you say, "I'm a critic," the natural question is what kind of critic? Literary Critic? Art Critic?
It used to be that a "skeptic" had a specific philosophy or religion that skepticism had reference to. Now the specific is a wider field, but still an identifiable one. Skeptics dont believe in the Supernatural or Philosophies that posit a world outside the jurisdiction of sceintific inquiry.

After this, a Skeptic is more someone who questions a new idea.
Your Social Critic who is finding fault with society based on his new value frame, is likely to find Skeptics questioning his new ideas.

There are of course Skeptics seeking to change society based on sceintific values. Skeptics aren't merely about tearing something apart with nothing to replace it. But the first word in Skepticism is "question."

Nah, that's all a muddle! I don't know what I'm talking about. I'll post this anyway for a skeet target. lol
 
For instance, shall I pick up that stick and fend the lion off with it or shall I climb the tree and hope to avoid him that way.
There's a third way - give somebody gullible the stick, tell them it's a Lion-Slaying Stick, and amble off. No strenuous climbing involved.
 
The world is full of partisan and emotional criticism, right and left. It is filled with various sound bites and bumper stickers advocating nostrums that are promoted with bluff, bluster, and bravado. We, who are of the critical thinking mind, should remain disinterested to such malarkey and try to take the path less traveled. To take the path of disseminating truth as we can perceive so as to lay a foundation for new ideas with new approaches to old problems.
I agree entirely. I would add that new approaches can reveal that old, established problems are not the real problems at all. They're simply what we're told are the problems. The real problem might be with the agenda that's presented, who's presenting it, and why.
 
When you make a decision without reasoning you create a big problem for yourself. At some later date you may comprehend matters and when you do you face the problem--you cannot argue down that which has never been argued up.


Evidently you have the context to understand your statement, but I do not understand your point. Reason is as fallible as any human endevour, so yes one should not make snap judgements unless there is an emergent situation involving death.

That much i can understand but your second sentence makes no sense to me, could you provode an example.

The only reason I mention evidence is that it is the basis of science, things like god, where a hold position might seem reasonable, lack evidence that is contrary to the material POV. So for me, i would say that god is a provisional theory lacking evidence. that is why i find the hold position to be a non-productive one. Without evidence theory is speculation.

Now in many complex issues obtaining accurate data is a true poser, and time and observation are the best tools for obtaining data. So in life there are many places for saying that there is not evidence to determine if a thoery has benefit or not, which would be akin to the hold position. If you can accept that hold means placing something in the appealing but unproven theory box.

Like dark matter, now viewed as possibly dark energy. We can observe that there is a lot of gravitation in the universe that is effecting the orbuts of bodies. we can speculate as to the nature of that which creates the gravitational forces, but we can not directly observe it ot interact with it. So we can surmise that there is mass of some sort which creates the extra gravitational energy, but it is just speculation until we gather more evidence.

I would still say that that is not a 'hold' but a theory. We can not test the validity of a theory at all times, which is why it remains an untested theory. Theory is great, predicitve theory is a wonderture in human form.
 
Evidently you have the context to understand your statement, but I do not understand your point. Reason is as fallible as any human endevour, so yes one should not make snap judgements unless there is an emergent situation involving death.

That much i can understand but your second sentence makes no sense to me, could you provode an example.

What is the meaning of “you cannot argue down what has never been argued up”

If you decide that war is right because you have good reason to think war is correct you have argued war up. If however, you consider war is right because you want war to be right you have not argued it up. So when you have evidence that war is not right you are faced not with creating a rational explanation for accepting war as wrong but you are faced with changing your emotional desire that it is right.

I am sure that will clear up the matter immediately.
 
What is the meaning of “you cannot argue down what has never been argued up”

If you decide that war is right because you have good reason to think war is correct you have argued war up. If however, you consider war is right because you want war to be right you have not argued it up. So when you have evidence that war is not right you are faced not with creating a rational explanation for accepting war as wrong but you are faced with changing your emotional desire that it is right.

I am sure that will clear up the matter immediately.

Ah, the political measure of one group forcing dominance upon another. That is certainly a very complex issue. war is a terrible thing, and never to be engaged in lightly or unmindfully. Certainly there are many wars which are just a waste of human life and resources, causing untold damage to all involved.

Even the needed war is harmful in countless ways, and can only be seen a a horrible option to prevent other horrible options.

War should never be entered lightly and only as a last resort, although the hold option is a possibility, it is not always the best one. But politics being what it is, hold is often the wisest, unless you are the USA watching Poland, France and Europe go down in flames under the Wermacht.

But there are many wars today which are just a waste of human life and damaging to all the people involved.
 
What is your definition of a skeptic?
It seems to me that a skeptic takes the contrary position and if so, just for the fun of it, that is fine. It is when you take the contrary position and lock yourself into a situation unfounded on reason that you get into a bind.

A skeptic would not lock themselves into a situation unfounded on reason.
Infact a skeptic rarely locks themselves into any decision. Skeptics will make an opinion on the evidence that is presented if it is sound and will change position if better evidence is provided.

Do skeptics take the contrary position? No. Most skeptics take the position that agree with the facts.

For example, If you say that I typed this post on a keyboard. I would have to agree.

If you said I typed this post on a stapler. I would not agree.
 
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Well put MetalPig!
Anything to be perceived as young and cool :)

But you're right, when I was younger I mainly used Yes and No. Over the years I've come to realize that I don't actually know everything, and 'I don't know' and 'I'm not sure' have crept into my vocabulary.
 
Originally Posted by coberst
It appears to me that many young people consider that ‘to be negative is to be cool’.

No we don't.
But isn't it well established, in sociobiological terms, that young people nearing adulthood will naturally challenge the immediate "authority" of their parents with critical questioning containing "negative" connotations, their motives being not a pure and chaste quest for the truth of the matter, but rather a response to elicit some sort of conflict by which the young can "prove themselves"? It's at this point many times, in the animal world, that the young are "pushed out of the nest" so to speak.

I've been through too many nephews (7) that I've taken under my wing that have each, without exception, challenged me at their entrance into adulthood with the ostensibly Hey-I'm-just-trying-to-critically-evaluate-what-you-said stance. But in reality, I was aware that their motivation was quite otherwise. For, after all the debates we had, and they had finally established their own adult status in the family circle by "nailing" an argument with me, then their "attitude" became more peer-like and mutual respect then developed naturally - I stopped being a "target" for them for they no longer had need to "prove" anything just for the sake of "proving" it to Me.

So,... "being negative to be cool"? Yes, I gotta tell ya, it sure seems like it in too many situations. When I was growing up, it was quite common for my friends and I to swap stories about how we had finally gotten one over on the old man (father). It was our rite of passage, right or wrong, it happened. And when we became men in our own right, we had no more need or desire to get one over the old man.
 
I sit down to dinner. Some kind of pale meat in a korma-like sauce. Tastes like chicken. I assign it the provisional value "chicken korma". Quite good actually. I eat it. My wife asks whether I liked the turkey. I'm unclear what problems I have caused for myself here.
 
I sit down to dinner. Some kind of pale meat in a korma-like sauce. Tastes like chicken. I assign it the provisional value "chicken korma". Quite good actually. I eat it. My wife asks whether I liked the turkey. I'm unclear what problems I have caused for myself here.

These matters are difficult and require a good deal of thought sometimes.
 
I sit down to dinner. Some kind of pale meat in a korma-like sauce. Tastes like chicken. I assign it the provisional value "chicken korma". Quite good actually. I eat it. My wife asks whether I liked the turkey. I'm unclear what problems I have caused for myself here.
My brother Hates venison. He sat down to dinner. Some kind of lean meat in a stew. Tasted like beef. He assigned it the provisional value "beef stew". Quite good actually. He ate it. His wife asked him whether he liked the venison. I'm unclear what problems he had caused for himself here. :D
 
These matters are difficult and require a good deal of thought sometimes.

Apropos of nothing, I rather like the Talking Heads song "Psycho killer".

"You start a conversation you can't even finish.
You're talking a lot but you're not saying anything.
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed." and so on. Catchy little number.
 
Originally Posted by coberst
These matters are difficult and require a good deal of thought sometimes.
Apropos of nothing, [snip]
Perhaps it was sarcasm?

[snip]"You start a conversation you can't even finish.
You're talking a lot but you're not saying anything.
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed." and so on. Catchy little number.
Reminds me of the old adage: "The difference between a wise man and a fool is that a wise man has something to say but a fool has to say something."
 

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