Is College Bull****? I think it is.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Education is pivotal, Dustin. You can't avoid it. It takes work to get an education - which is why I think you shun it so much.

I agree...Except...

You can get an education without college.

 

[Johnny Pixels]

My university education included the use of software packages that come with licenses in the thousands of pounds each range. How do you propose I learn how to use those, seeing as I can't afford them?

It also included access to engineers from Ford and Jaguar, whose personal insights were very important. How do you propose I would talk to those people otherwise?

It also allowed me to use engine mapping software and equipment, where would I find that to practice on? Seeing as parts of the equipment were personally begged/borrowed/stolen by a lecturer with personal links to racing teams?

Universities and colleges have resources. I don't. That's why I needed to go there.

 

[Lurker]

One of the original purposes of our university system was not to teach specifics so much but to teach processes. A more rounded education enabled you to apply your college wisdom across a broader spectrum.

Basically, we used to learn logic and critical thinking better which are applicable to pretty much all areas. It seems colleges have moved away form this basic and beocme a tad too specialized IMO.

 

[CFLarsen]

I agree...Except...

You can get an education without college.

Sure you can. But you still have to work for it.

What is your education, btw? I may have missed it, but.....enlighten me.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

My university education included the use of software packages that come with licenses in the thousands of pounds each range. How do you propose I learn how to use those, seeing as I can't afford them?

P2P downloading.

Kazaa
Limewire
Rip-Torrent

All free.

It also included access to engineers from Ford and Jaguar, whose personal insights were very important. How do you propose I would talk to those people otherwise?

Read their personal insights online or in books.
or
Contact them yourself.

It also allowed me to use engine mapping software and equipment, where would I find that to practice on? Seeing as parts of the equipment were personally begged/borrowed/stolen by a lecturer with personal links to racing teams?

Give me an example.

Universities and colleges have resources. I don't. That's why I needed to go there.

You aren't everyone. Using your own personal need for a university isn't an argument that EVERYONE must go to learn.


Moreover, This is a very specific case among few where you need things that you can't afford to learn what you need to learn. In most cases all you need is a Library card.

 

[JamesDillon]

P2P downloading.

Kazaa
Limewire
Rip-Torrent

All free.

So now you're promoting software piracy? Really?

 

[Lurker]

Dustin:

Since any degree area is a rather large field of endeavor, how do you propose testing job applicants on their knowledge of each field? How do you do so economically?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

So now you're promoting software piracy? Really?

 

[Lurker]

So now you're promoting software piracy? Really?

The FEA and CAD software I use costs about $75k but my college got it for free. I can't download it from any of the sources Dustin cited. Most engineering softwares are like that - expensive and not downloadable.

 

[JamesDillon]

Is that an answer? Yes or no: are you advocating the piracy of thousand-dollar software?

 

[Katana]

The cost of college education has been thrown around as one argument for alternatives. While I agree that college is expensive, and, perhaps, too expensive. What is your education worth to you?

To become a surgeon, it takes a hell of a lot more than following someone around and learning the technical skills. You need a strong background in biology, organic and inorganic chemistry, physics, and English (believe it or not) to name a few in order to handle the rigors of medical school which requires that you learn biochemistry, physiology, anatomy, pharmacology, psychology, molecular biology, histology, pathology, embryology and genetics (to name a few). You need a strong, well-rounded educational foundation to become, yes, even a surgeon. Remember, they are physicians not just technicians.

If you think that you can duplicate all of the biological, psychological, and chemistry laboratory experiments that are so essential to illustrating certain basic concepts and processes outside of college, you're wrong. Practically speaking, there is a reason why certain substances are only available to teaching institutions where they have specific certifications for dealing with and disposing of hazardous and radioactive materials. Don't forget the anatomic specimens involved in dissection. There is also a reason why those aren't available to just anyone. Beyond that, there is value in being taught by those who have dedicated their careers to the study of science, have conducted research studies, and have published in peer-reviewed journals. Who better to teach you the fundamentals of science?

College is not the only means through which one's abilities are measured when you apply for medical school. That is why there are things called a standardized test, letters of recommendation, extracurricular activities, and personal essays that factor into, say, medical school admissions. This is because there is no one single way to assess an applicant's qualifications. Everything has its limitations, so it is the sum of these factors that reflect an applicant's qualifications.

College is necessary because there is at least some measure of standardization in the classroom work of the basic medical school prerequisites. What this does is assure someone looking at your application is that your standardized test score wasn't a fluke but is consistent with your overall performance as reflected in your grades, letters, etc.

And, Dustin, knowing one factoid (or thinking that you do) that a physician "should" know but didn't can also be a function of having read inaccurate information on the web or in lay journals. I hope that you don't believe everything you read. I do wonder what you do read since you seldom throw out evidence to support your assumptions, declarations, and anecdotes.

I don't know the nature of your conversation with your dermatologist, but there are different classification schemes when it comes to acne. Some separate comedones (blackheads) from acne while some consider it a mild subset. She may have been correct depending on her background. There are things like that in medicine, by the way, in many fields. You don't always have universal agreement, particularly when it comes to categorizing illnesses, and definitions can change over time. So she may actually have known what she was talking about. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[JamesDillon]

The FEA and CAD software I use costs about $75k but my college got it for free. I can't download it from any of the sources Dustin cited. Most engineering softwares are like that - expensive and not downloadable.

That's not surprising, but it doesn't really undermine the point that he seems to think you can get it on Kazaa, and is okay with that.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Dustin:

Since any degree area is a rather large field of endeavor, how do you propose testing job applicants on their knowledge of each field? How do you do so economically?

I don't know about how such a thing would be done. Testing them that is...It's not my job to figure out how. It shouldn't be too hard. If states can form a 2 day test to determine knowledge one should learn from kindergarten to 12th grade(G.E.D) I doubt they would have trouble developing a test to determine their ability for a degree in a specific field.

However it would be paid for by the people taking the test. From a few hundred to a few thousand dollars, Depending on the field being tested.

Some others would be able to get aid from the govt. depending on their financial situation.

 

[ingoa]

I never said college would be done away with. It looks like I’m not the only who doesn't comprehend the English language, You can't even read my posts.

I said that for those few people who are self taught or have the skills from other means would have the ability to start doing the work without attending a college or getting a degree.

Hmmm...
This I really do not understand. You say college is ********. But at least 99% of scientific achievements are done by college graduates.
It appears that college did not hurt these people.

You say that without college degree you cannot be successful in an academic environment. Yet you gave names of people who did that nevertheless.
It appears that you do not have to graduate from college to be successful (e.g. Buckminster-Fuller).

To make it short.
Most of the successful people graduated from college. Some successful people did not graduate from college.

To make it shorter: Were's your beef?

You do not have to go to college to be successful. You might HAVE to go to college in order to take up a PARTICULAR job. For example lawyer and surgeon (and these are almost always jobs that could screw up the life of your prospective customers; that's why they are regulated).

In almost all other cases no college is really required. You just have to convince your prospective employer that you are up to the job. Some people have diplomas, some people have life experience, others have something else.
Employers define the qualifications that they need for a job done. If they ask for a college degree then better provide one. If they ask for a sky divers license a doctorate will be useless.

Get your own company and you can hire everybody you want. But until then do not prescribe ME whom I should hire. No selftaught bookworm will come near my (our) multi billion accelerator.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Is that an answer? Yes or no: are you advocating the piracy of thousand-dollar software?

Irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[JamesDillon]

Irrelevant to the discussion.

It's not irrelevant just because it makes you look like an ass. You were asked how a person who needs thousand-dollar software in order to study engineering is supposed to do that without the resources of an educational institution. Your answer: download it on Kazaa or Limewire. Do you really think it's wise policy for people to commit large-scale software piracy in order to avoid paying tuition fees?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

And, Dustin, knowing one factoid (or thinking that you do) that a physician "should" know but didn't can also be a function of having read inaccurate information on the web or in lay journals. I hope that you don't believe everything you read. I do wonder what you do read since you seldom throw out evidence to support your assumptions, declarations, and anecdotes.

No, I was right.

I don't know the nature of your conversation with your dermatologist, but there are different classification schemes when it comes to acne. Some separate comedones (blackheads) from acne while some consider it a mild subset. She may have been correct depending on her background. There are things like that in medicine, by the way, in many fields. You don't always have universal agreement, particularly when it comes to categorizing illnesses, and definitions can change over time. So she may actually have known what she was talking about. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I have had numerous other dermatologists identify what I had as blackheads and I have read in numerous dermatology journals that what I had were indeed blackheads.

The only people who seperate blackheads from 'acne' are the laymen. Every journal i've read and professional I have talked to identify blackheads as a form of acne.

She was wrong. Pure and simple.

 

[Lurker]

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Not really. If you want to be an engineer specializing in CAD/FEA/CFD, how do you propose getting time on the software when it each package costs many thousands of dollars? You cna't download them so what is your solution? Should colleges charge you a lab fee and allow you in?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

It's not irrelevant just because it makes you look like an ass. You were asked how a person who needs thousand-dollar software in order to study engineering is supposed to do that without the resources of an educational institution. Your answer: download it on Kazaa or Limewire. Do you really think it's wise policy for people to commit large-scale software piracy in order to avoid paying tuition fees?

It's a red herring and I won't get into a debate about software piracy.



I won't respond to another message dealing with it.

 

[JamesDillon]

It's a red herring and I won't get into a debate about software piracy.



I won't respond to another message dealing with it.

I'm pretty sure that advocating criminal activity is a breach of the forum rules, Dustin. If not, it should be.