Is College Bull****? I think it is.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I've always wondered about College and what exactly its point is. There are several things that really don't make sense about College and most people’s view of College and it's adequacy.

For instance, Why in our society is it impossible to become a doctor or lawyer without a college education? What if you are self-taught and can demonstrate your ability and knowledge to anyone? Why do you still have to go through 4-6 years of school to learn what you already know? In the United States it’s illegal to practice law without a law degree. Why? Even if you have the knowledge you still have to go to law school? Isn’t this basically a logical fallacy?

In my opinion there should be some government ran organization that oversees the skills of everyone applying for a license for a specific profession. They should not discriminate based on educational history but should judge based on SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE. They would test their skill and ability in every area conceivable in the specific field. Such as if they want to get a license to be a doctor they would spend several weeks going through extensive testing to determine their actual ability in the field. This makes the most sense in my opinion. Giving licenses to people based on their ABILITY rather than their educational history.

Of course we all know that even with a college degree that doesn’t guarantee skill or knowledge in the area the person got their degree. There are so many people out there who have degrees in various areas yet know less about those areas than most laymen. Lawyers, Doctors, Businessmen..etc.

This is just the main problem with college and it’s impact on our society. Other problems include colleges themselves . Many colleges don’t even adequately teach students or educate them. Many colleges simply con students out of their money and the end result is the students not being any more intelligent or having anymore knowledge than when they first entered college.
Colleges are too expensive as well. The price of college rose something like 400% in the past 35 years. Yet I read somewhere the courses they are providing and the success rate of their graduates actually decreased. Most of the money doesn’t even go to books or teachers but goes to things like absurd construction ventures and Jacuzzis and other useless things that don’t belong in college.

In my opinion college should be the judge of whether someone gets a job or not. Their SKILL should be the judge of that. College should simply be there to help educate people who can’t educate themselves. That’s it. Period.

Discuss.

 

[slingblade]

Is it okay if I practice my surgical skills on you?

 

[JamesDillon]

Spoken like a high-school dropout. Or a petulant 14 year old.

P.S. One handy thing you learn in college is the difference between "it's" and "its." You might someday find that's a handy bit of knowledge to have in the job market, as are the rules about capitalizing common nouns (general rule: don't do it).

P.P.S. While there are no doubt incompetent attorneys and physicians in the world, you'll have a hard time finding any licensed practitioners who "know less about those areas than most laymen."

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Is it okay if I practice my surgical skills on you?

If you have shown that you do indeed have the skills to do a specific surgery and have a reputable past in the medical field and yet don’t have a college degree.. Absolutely. If of course it were legal.


Of course I currently do choose my doctors based on their professional history not on their educational history. If one doctor has many more credentials than another yet who’s professional past is extremely sketchy then I would choose the doctor who has less medical history yet a reputable reputation and professional history.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Spoken like a high-school dropout. Or a petulant 14 year old.

Nice Ad hominem.

No. I have a highschool diploma and i'm not a 14 year old.

P.S. One handy thing you learn in college is the difference between "it's" and "its." You might someday find that's a handy bit of knowledge to have in the job market, as are the rules about capitalizing common nouns (general rule: don't do it).

Nice red herring.

P.P.S. While there are no doubt incompetent attorneys and physicians in the world, you'll have a hard time finding any licensed practitioners who "know less about those areas than most laymen."

Yet there are plenty of them.

 

[toddjh]

In terms of the job market, a college degree isn't necessarily about the applicant's knowledge; rather, it's important because it shows that he or she can stick with something difficult and see it through. A valuable trait in most jobs, completely apart from what you do or don't know.

Edited to add: Obviously this isn't the case so much in specialized fields such as law or medicine, but it's an important consideration overall.

 

[JamesDillon]

Nice Ad hominem.

I think it's a fair and accurate assessment of the level of your opening post.

Yet there are plenty of them.

Name one.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

In terms of the job market, a college degree isn't necessarily about the applicant's knowledge; rather, it's important because it shows that he or she can stick with something difficult and see it through. A valuable trait in most jobs, completely apart from what you do or don't know.

Edited to add: Obviously this isn't the case so much in specialized fields such as law or medicine, but it's an important consideration overall.

I doubt that's what most employers think when they are looking for someone to hire. I think they see "PHD" and think "Oh, He must be a genius!" not "Oh, He must have good work ethic". I think a vast employment history would express their work ethic much more than having a 4 year degree, Or any degree for that matter.

 

[toddjh]

I doubt that's what most employers think when they are looking for someone to hire. I think they see "PHD" and think "Oh, He must be a genius!" not "Oh, He must have good work ethic". I think a vast employment history would express their work ethic much more than having a 4 year degree, Or any degree for that matter.

Speaking as someone who's on interview committees fairly regularly, I can tell you that's definitely not the case, at least where I work. And yes, solid work experience can demonstrate the same thing.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Name one.

My last Dermatologist. She knew less about acne than I did. She made all sorts of absurd claims including claiming 'blackheads' aren't a type acne or that Isotretinoin wouldn't get rid of blackheads even though numerous studies i've read said otherwise (and even though my own personal experience with the drug said otherwise).


This is just one among many of the cases in my personal experience where people with educational background have less knowledge than many laymens.

 

[daredelvis]

In my opinion there should be some government ran organization that oversees the skills of everyone applying for a license for a specific

"government rUn organization"

You still need more schooling whippersnapper.

Daredelvis

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Speaking as someone who's on interview committees fairly regularly, I can tell you that's definitely not the case, at least where I work. And yes, solid work experience can demonstrate the same thing.

Not going to nitpick.


However wouldn't you agree that college being used as the sole gauge to determine skill or intelligence in many specialized trades is absurd?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

"government rUn organization"

You still need more schooling whippersnapper.

Daredelvis

I can't tell if you're joking and being sarcastic or if you're actually implying my confusion between "government run" and "government ran" implies I am uneducated.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Penn & Teller actually did a show making all of the points I made and more in their series "********".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7427067542845351261&q=penn+and+teller+********


Worth a watch

 

[JamesDillon]

My last Dermatologist. She knew less about acne than I did. She made all sorts of absurd claims including claiming 'blackheads' aren't a type acne or that Isotretinoin wouldn't get rid of blackheads even though numerous studies i've read said otherwise (and even though my own personal experience with the drug said otherwise).

Even if your account is entirely accurate, a claim of which I'm skeptical, how does that support the contention in your opening post that there are licensed professionals who "know less about [their] areas than most laymen"? Most laymen don't read dermatological studies. If your claim now is that some laymen know some facts about a particular field of specialization that are unknown to some professionals working in that area, that's a substantially weaker claim than your original statement. I would also add that, even if it is true that you were more familiar with the effects of Isotretinoin than your dermatologist was, that's no evidence that you are better acquanted with the entire field of dematology than she is.

This is just one among many of the cases in my personal experience where people with educational background have less knowledge than many laymens.

Laymens?

I'm not picking on your spelling and grammar just to be a jerk. The point is that you can't compensate for the lack of a college education just by reading a couple of books on a particular subject and then assume that you're equally well-qualified as someone with an undergraduate (and, in the case of doctors and lawyers, additional professional) degree.

Penn & Teller actually did a show making all of the points I made and more in their series "********".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7427067542845351261&q=penn+and+teller+********


Worth a watch

I have great respect for Penn as an entertainer, and I agree with him on a lot of political and philosophical issues, but I'd hardly look at him as a model of intellectual achievement, nor, as far as I know, does he represent himself as such.

 

[a_unique_person]

If you have shown that you do indeed have the skills to do a specific surgery and have a reputable past in the medical field and yet don’t have a college degree.. Absolutely. If of course it were legal.


Of course I currently do choose my doctors based on their professional history not on their educational history. If one doctor has many more credentials than another yet who’s professional past is extremely sketchy then I would choose the doctor who has less medical history yet a reputable reputation and professional history.

Standards and education for Doctors are important, but what also happens is that the surgeons, here at least, get together to create a 'closed shop', where they strictly control the numbers trained, which is always never quite enough to get rid of the waiting lists.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Even if your account is entirely accurate, a claim of which I'm skeptical, how does that support the contention in your opening post that there are licensed professionals who "know less about [their] areas than most laymen"? Most laymen don't read dermatological studies. If your claim now is that some laymen know some facts about a particular field of specialization that are unknown to some professionals working in that area, that's a substantially weaker claim than your original statement. I would also add that, even if it is true that you were more familiar with the effects of Isotretinoin than your dermatologist was, that's no evidence that you are better acquanted with the entire field of dematology than she is.

No. Most laymen know that blackheads are indeed a form of Acne.

Secondly I could go on for hours about the nonsense this particular dermatologist has spued but I don't see the point. I could easily list cases of well known 'professionals' who hold absurd notions in their specific field that most laymen might not know but that proves having a degree isn't proof of knowledge of the field in which it is held.

Case in point..Michael Behe

Laymens?

I'm not picking on your spelling and grammar just to be a jerk. The point is that you can't compensate for the lack of a college education just by reading a couple of books on a particular subject and then assume that you're equally well-qualified as someone with an undergraduate (and, in the case of doctors and lawyers, additional professional) degree.

1. You're attacking my spelling and grammar because you have nothing else to attack. Even though my spelling and grammar are completely comprehendible and the errors I make are extremely small.
2. It's spelled 'acquainted' not 'acquanted' and it's spelled 'dermatology' not 'dematology'.
3. I never claimed 'reading a few books' is equal to a 4 year degree. That is a strawman.

I have great respect for Penn as an entertainer, and I agree with him on a lot of political and philosophical issues, but I'd hardly look at him as a model of intellectual achievement, nor, as far as I know, does he represent himself as such.

I don't think I ever claimed he was a 'model of intellectual achievement'. But if you want me to give you examples of 'models of intellectual achievement' who never went to college and some who didn't even finish highschool then I will.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Standards and education for Doctors are important, but what also happens is that the surgeons, here at least, get together to create a 'closed shop', where they strictly control the numbers trained, which is always never quite enough to get rid of the waiting lists.

Standards and education are important for any field. However I believe those standards could be met without restricting it to those who have degrees.

I also believe education is possible without college.

 

[JamesDillon]

No. Most laymen know that blackheads are indeed a form of Acne.

Whether that is or is not the case, and I can't imagine how you'd prove such a thing without resort to a public poll (personally I had never given the slightest thought to the medical classification of blackheads until this thread came along), you're missing my point: that you can't take a particular fact in isolation and extrapolate from that to the conclusion that you therefore know more about dermatology than your doctor does. There's no basis for that conclusion.

Secondly I could go on for hours about the nonsense this particular dermatologist has spued but I don't see the point. I could easily list cases of well known 'professionals' who hold absurd notions in their specific field that most laymen might not know but that proves having a degree isn't proof of knowledge of the field in which it is held.

It isn't proof of inerrant knowledge of every aspect of that body of knowledge, but it is virtually irrefutable evidence that the person in question is more familiar with that area of knowledge than someone who lacks special training. Your anecdotes provide no evidence to the contrary.

Case in point..Michael Behe

Behe's degree, I believe, is in biochemistry, and I have no doubt that he knows a lot more about biochemistry than either you or I do. Of course, that doesn't qualify him to make authoritative statements on other aspects of evolutionary biology, but the fact that a person who is an authority in one area may lack expertise in other areas is hardly controversial.

1. You're attacking my spelling and grammar because you have nothing else to attack. Even though my spelling and grammar are completly comprehendable and the errors I make are extremly small.

1. 
   I have plenty of other areas for criticism, and have been making those criticisms as well. My point is that proficiency with written English is important to one's credibility and employability in the job market, and notwithstanding your apparent conviction to the contrary, one (of the many) benefits of a college education that simply can't be replicated is the practice and feedback in developing one's writing style that it provides.
   
   

   [*]It's spelled 'acquainted' not 'acquanted' and it's spelled 'dermatology' not 'dematology'.

   My keyboard is sticking because I spilled soup on it. What's your excuse?
   
   

   [*]I never claimed 'reading a few books' is equal to a 4 year degree. That is a strawman.

It seems to me that's exactly what you're claiming. What is your argument, then?

I don't think I ever claimed he was a 'model of intellectual achievement'. But if you want me to give you examples of 'models of intellectual achievement' who never went to college and some who didn't even finish highschool then I will.

Please offer one example of an accomplished physician or attorney who didn't go to college.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I can think of many trades that are better off from apprentices or self taught than school taught(obviously you could do any of these things AND school but Im talking school by itself)

1. Construction/Painting

2. Plumbing

3. Audio Recording/ Engineering

4. Military leadership ( yes weve seen how "well" making someone a LT just for having gone to college works out )