Loose Change - Part IV

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That link brings me to the welcome page...not nice...I am not going to wade through tonnes of crap to get to the pic you wish us to see...
 
Submersible said:
If it were not for the massive amount of brilliant people in this country, the general public wouldn't have to go through this tremendous case of "mental diarrhea" and discussion, to draw the simple conclusion that a relatively small fire couldn't have sucked WTC 7 ... underground.
Click to expand...

Relative to what?
 
Submersible said:
If it were not for the massive amount of brilliant people in this country, the general public wouldn't have to go through this tremendous case of "mental diarrhea" and discussion, to draw the simple conclusion that a relatively small fire couldn't have sucked WTC 7 ... underground.

http://www.wtc7.net/docs/streamers.jpg
[qimg]http://http://www.wtc7.net/docs/streamers.jpg[/qimg]
Half-way through Building 7's 6.5-second plunge, streamers suggestive of demolition charges emerged from the facade.

[qimg]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema/wtc-7-small.gif[/qimg]

Du'mass
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If you know it was a "relatively small fire" then please provide the following:
(1) Approx. square feet affected by fire
(2) Location of those areas affected
(3) Approx. max temp of fire
(4) Approx. avg temp of fire
 
A column from today's Chicago Tribune about 9/11 nutters is also on the author's blog, as you can well imagine the troofers are flooding the comments section w/ insanity. I replied and posted a link to 9/11 Myths, if anyone else wants to add anything feel free!

It's the 2nd article from the top.
 
WildCat said:
A column from today's Chicago Tribune about 9/11 nutters is also on the author's blog, as you can well imagine the troofers are flooding the comments section w/ insanity. I replied and posted a link to 9/11 Myths, if anyone else wants to add anything feel free!

It's the 2nd article from the top.
Click to expand...

more CTer fascism, they claim they are merely voicing their opinions, but then attack anyone who voices a dissenting opinion
 
defaultdotxbe said:
more CTer fascism, they claim they are merely voicing their opinions, but then attack anyone who voices a dissenting opinion
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It's the "I'mjust voicing my opinion" defense. Oddly enough, they love to proclaim that they are allowed to have their opinion, but apparently no one is allowed to have the opinion that their opinion is idiotic.

I should note, this is a standard fallacy for people who are in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are wrong and have no actual rebuttal. It is so common, in fact, that I have proposed to include a description of it in discussion board posting FAQs.
 
Question:

wrt Waleed Al-Shehri. Embree-Riddle has a golden eagle card you are required to have when you attend school. It has a photo on it. You would think that someone has access to those photos, and if they keep them around on file back to 1997, then someone could get access to the photo of the Embree Waleed, then compare that photo to the FBI one could they not??

Anyone know if these photos are available?
 
The comments in reply to the DNA are almost as amusing as the no planers. Check out "solgrabber"
"I am calling BS on this one.

If they collected samples of DNA from the vehicles which the hijackers used what did they compare these first samples up against?

Did these supposed hijackers walk into a blood donation clinic before hand and fill out a form with their names on it for the FBI to compare their samples with or something?

All that was proven was that they matched DNA from unknown sources to DNA from unknown sources. This means they proved one thing and one thing only,

F*CK ALL."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually they did fill out a form with their names on it at the rental shops and hotels. Here's the cars for starters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cars_used_by_the_9/11_hijackers
 
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Over on the LC forum, various posters comment about the glorious day, sooner rather than later, when Jesus will re^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H prosecutors will bring charges against the "REAL" perpetrators of 9/11.

Is it likely, or even plausible that any of this stuff would ever be aired in court, in a Jim Garrison-style affair? A copyright infringment suit, a libel suit?
 
chipmunk stew said:
Quite. I don't understand what Dylan means by "i rest my case" here. He rests his case that the person clowning him is a hottie skepchick rather than a pale, greasy nerdling? How does this help his case, much less rest it?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6938682
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There does seem to be some sexism at work among the Deniers. Have you seen their poster for 9-11? They managed to put six faces on it and this being the era of multi-culti nonsense, they made sure one was black and one Hispanic. Two look remarkably like Dylan and Korey. But none of them are female:
 

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T.A.M. said:
Question:

wrt Waleed Al-Shehri. Embree-Riddle has a golden eagle card you are required to have when you attend school. It has a photo on it. You would think that someone has access to those photos, and if they keep them around on file back to 1997, then someone could get access to the photo of the Embree Waleed, then compare that photo to the FBI one could they not??

Anyone know if these photos are available?
Click to expand...
TAM, not sure about the photos, but one suggestion would be to find a copy of Dateline NBC's "A Saudi Apology" on Aug 25 2002 I've seen the episode where they interviewed family members.

I still have a copy of the web page discussing the special. I hope this helps a little.
Also if you haven't I'd check out 9/11myths.


Exclusive interview with brother of two hijackers *
Brothers suspected of being 9/11 hijackers, Wail al Shahiri, left, and Waleed al Shahiri. *

NBC News

Aug. 25 — *President Bush and top Saudi officials are meeting this week to discuss further cooperation in investigating the Sept. 11 terror attacks. Saudi Arabia was home to 15 of the hijackers. What triggered the terrorists’ hate? Dateline’s John Hockenberry travelled to Saudi Arabia’s Asir province to find out.
* * *
* * * *IT IS HERE where Osama bin Laden found his most potent weapon — ordinary angry Saudis off the radars of U.S. and Saudi intelligence, men with some U.S. education and most important, U.S. visas. They went largely unnoticed before September 11, safe in the shadows of the U.S.-Saudi blind spot that al-Qaeda recruited without fear.
* * * *For 30 years Bob Baer was a dedicated field operative for the CIA in the Middle East. He left the CIA in 1997. And he is the author of the book “See No Evil,” about the U.S.-Saudi relationship as he saw it.
* * * *“Inside the mosques they’re saying go kill yourselves in the name of Islam,” says Baer. “And where was the United States? Where was the Saudi royal family?”
* * * *Ordinary Saudis living far from the strategic oil fields simply never figured into the U.S.-Saudi arrangement. But on September 11 they redefined it. Even their parents were clueless.
* * * *Prince Khalid Al-Faisal is governor of Asir Province. A third of the Saudi hijackers grew up here.
* * * *
* * * *Prince Khaled Al-Faisal: “They didn’t actually think that their sons were able to do such terrible action. But they also believe that they have been deceived, their children have been deceived.”
* * * *Prince Khaled Al-Faisal: “And they are good people by the way — their families.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “The families?”
* * * *Prince Khaled Al-Faisal: “Are very good people.”
* * * *
* * * *It’s a relatively isolated province in the extreme south where its rocky hills rise out of the Red Sea.
* * * *
* * * *Prince Khaled Al-Faisal: “I think they have been chosen, especially to hit the American Saudi relations.”
* * * *
‘What I want to say for the American people, we are very sorry what happened in 11th September for the families, for everybody.’
— SALAH AL-SHAHIRI
Brother of suspected hijackers * * * *Chosen well. Reports from southern Saudi Arabia suggest a loose network of radical clerics who identified aimless, possibly bitter young men, offering them a chance at immortality. Does the government have an explanation?
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “Is there some aspect of Saudi life that would encourage well-to-do, educated, young men, to do these kinds of things? Bin Laden is one.”
* * * *Prince Khaled Al-Faisal: “The only problem is the Palestinian problems.”
* * * *
* * * *From Israel, brutal images dominate Saudi media. It’s an inescapable issue here and a catch-all official explanation for the motives of the 15 Saudi hijackers on September 11. So what is the official explanation for why no Palestinians were among the hijackers on September 11?
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “Why didn’t they [Palestinians] fly the planes into the World Trade Center?”
* * * *Prince Khaled Al-Faisal: “Why don’t you ask Bin Laden himself?”
* * * *
FROM WELL-TO-DO-FAMILIES
* * * *“Dateline” decided to speak directly with the families of the hijackers in Saudi Arabia. What we found is that when you get on the trail of terrorists in Saudi Arabia, the journey takes you through some pretty nice neighborhoods.
We went to the home of the well-to-do family of Hani Hanjour — the man believed to have flown the plane into the Pentagon on September 11. The Hanjour family is wealthy from car dealerships, selling every make from Chevrolet to Rolls Royce. Hani had money and privilege and access to a U.S. visa, but he was denied the chance to be a pilot for the Saudi national airline.
* * * *We came here to interview the family. We were told the family wanted to talk to Americans about the shocking events of September 11 — events caused in part by one of their family members.
* * * *They even gave us never-before-seen pictures of Hani, hardly images of a zealot, a snapshot he sent home from Arizona, skiing — presumably taken during a break from his pilot training in Phoenix.
* * * *When we got here though we were told the family was in too much pain, too much grief to speak to the media. Then we were told what they really wanted was money — $12,000. Twelve grand to explain why their son was part of the worst terrorist attack in history or $12,000 to deny it, we didn’t hang around to find out.
* * * *But in Kamish, Mushyat, Saudi Arabia, where it is believed five of the hijackers grew up and were recruited, we finally met Salah, a brother of Wail and Waleed Al-Shahiri, both on American Airlines Flight 11 — the first plane to hit the World Trade Center.
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “Do you think that Walid, Wail, your brothers, were capable of being part of this operation?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “In my judgment, impossible. I know them, I know their behavior.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “What if it is true? What would you say?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “If that is true, we have to be realistic. And accept the tragedy.”
* * * *
A FAMILY’S SHOCK
‘They were youth who grew up in a house with the best upbringing. Their behavior was very normal. There is no need to think they had crazy wild thoughts. There was nothing wrong with them. They were very normal.’
— SALAH AL-SHAHIRI
* * * *Like the Hanjours, the Al- Shahiri family is a well-to-do, hard working family. The father built a mosque as a gift to the town. It’s across the street from the home in which Walid and Wail Al-Shahiri grew up.
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “You grew up in the same house with them. Who were they, as human beings? Who were they?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “They were youth who grew up in a house with the best upbringing. Their behavior was very normal. There is no need to think they had crazy wild thoughts. There was nothing wrong with them. They were very normal.”
* * * *
* * * *Salah says his brother’s alienation and eventual recruitment by al-Qaeda was invisible.
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “They were in their twenties. Is it possible that they were lost? Didn’t know what their future would be? Maybe frustrated?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “Regarding Wail, he was a teacher. He graduated from the university and he became a teacher, an art teacher.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “It appears that your brother found something else to do, be part of al-Qaeda.”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “I don’t know. It is very difficult to imagine that. It is difficult because the time was very short. There was not enough time for him to be trained to fly a plane. Furthermore, he didn’t know English.”
* * * *
* * * *It’s a denial motivated by family pride. But scratch below the surface and you find truth.
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “Do you believe they are dead, in your heart?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “For me? Yes.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “You do? You carry that around in your heart, right? That’s a terrible burden?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “As for myself, yes.”
More from Dateline
• Schedule
• Homepage
• Newsletter* * * *Salah’s truth bears no resemblance to the official line from the Saudi royals — that the hijackers were religious zealots seeking revenge for the Palestinians.
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “Were your two brothers religious?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “No. Not in the way one might imagine.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “But your brothers didn’t march in the streets and work day and night to free the Palestinians? Did they?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “No.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “No. Did they talk about getting U.S. military troops out of the kingdom?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “No.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “No. So it looks like your two brothers were brainwashed.”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “Yes.”
* * * *
* * * *More blindness or is it simply that no one ever asked the right questions of these people? We learned Osama bin Laden is no hero in this household.
* * * *
* * * *John Hockenberry: “There is this famous video of Osama bin Laden speaking in Afghanistan talking about some people on the airplanes in New York and Washington did not even know that they were going to die — had no idea that this was a suicide mission. Is it possible that Walid and Wail were on a plane not knowing what was to happen?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “It is possible. They were still immature.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “It is possible. If so, Osama bin Laden is laughing about the death of your two brothers?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “I hated this man for along time. I hate his ideas.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “But beyond his way of thinking, he’s laughing about what might have been the murder of your two brothers.”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “He is a devil.”
* * * *
* * * *Can this devil who has devastated this family and struck deep into the heart of America achieve his goal of toppling the kingdom of Saudi Arabia? Prince Turki Al-Faisal, a member of the Saudi royal family, says he’s not worried about Osama bin Laden.
* * * *
* * * *Prince Turki Al-Faisal: “And every time many experts have predicted the downfall of the kingdom. When the revolution in Egypt took place the time they said there’s going to be a domino effect in the Arab world and all the kings will disappear. The kingdom did not.”
* * * *
* * * *And there’s little sign the U.S.-Saudi arrangement is about to disappear anytime soon. But the jury is still out on this kingdom in the Arabian Desert. The victims of September 11 are demanding unprecedented compensation for what they say was Saudi Arabia ignoring terrorists in their midst.
* * * *In its few statements, Saudi Arabia has officially condemned the attacks on September 11 and said they are working side by side with the U.S. in the war on terror. We got something more on our journey to Saudi Arabia — a heartfelt apology to the American people from an ordinary man at the center of an extraordinary tragedy.
* * * *
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “What I want to say for the American people, we are very sorry what happened in 11th September for the families, for everybody.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “After all that’s happened, can Americans and Saudis still be friends?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “Yes.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “In English.”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “Yes.”
* * * *John Hockenberry: “Do you believe it?”
* * * *Salah Al-Shahiri: “Yes. I believe it.”

* * * *Despite the Saudi assertion that it’s working “side by side” with America in the war on terror, U.S. investigators have not been able to talk to the families of the hijacking suspects as “Dateline” has done. The Saudis say they are conducting their own investigation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article is an excerpt from a longer report that aired on Dateline NBC.
 
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Kent1 said:
The comments in reply to the DNA are almost as amusing as the no planers. Check out "solgrabber"
"I am calling BS on this one.

If they collected samples of DNA from the vehicles which the hijackers used what did they compare these first samples up against?

Did these supposed hijackers walk into a blood donation clinic before hand and fill out a form with their names on it for the FBI to compare their samples with or something?

All that was proven was that they matched DNA from unknown sources to DNA from unknown sources. This means they proved one thing and one thing only,

F*CK ALL."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually they did fill out a form with their names on it at the rental shops and hotels. Here's the cars for starters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cars_used_by_the_9/11_hijackers
Click to expand...

And as for what they compared the DNA recovered in the hotel and car to:

http://www.implosionworld.com/news.htm

DEMOLITION TEAMS RELATE GROUND ZERO EXPERIENCES

Implosionworld.com Exclusive, March 29, 2003

Although every speaker captivated the standing-room only crowd with various stories, it was Dannenfelser who provided some of the most compelling observations. Having spent months coordinating retrieval efforts at the Fresh Kills Landfill in Staten Island, he spoke of working closely with the FBI and other agencies in developing various types of debris filtering machines, including one that could recognize small amounts of "human material" for DNA identification. He also spoke of retrieving, "about 10,000 pieces of the airplanes, which I kept in a pile by my truck for safekeeping."
Click to expand...

Nice little piece, that There is also bad news in there for the CTs who believe:

1) Material was hastily shipped to China without examination.
2) Contolled Demolition Inc were the only demoltion contractors at Ground Zero.
3) No planes hit the towers.
 
Quickfire response to NORAD claims

For anyone wanting a little soundbyte piece of info for rebutting claims of "paralysed air defences"

From my NORAD document the following important information can be gathered:

The time from first sign of hijacking to NEADS being notified of the hijacking, and then how much time NORAD had after being notified to carry out an intercept:

AA11 - NEADS notified 24 minutes after first sign of hijacking and 9 minutes before it hit the North Tower
UA175 - NEADS notified 11 minutes after first sign of hijacking and 0 minutes before it hit the South Tower
AA77 - NEADS nofified 41 minutes after first sign of hijacking and 2 minutes before it hit The Pentagon
UA93 - NEADS notified 28 minutes after first sign of hijacking and 4 minutes after it had crashed

These useful bits of info quickly dispell claims of a stand-down or "Air Defense Failure" (if you find yourself going into more detail feel free to refer to my summary).

-Andrew
 
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