Racism in modern Germany?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I was wondering...To what extint does racism exist in Modern Germany? It seems to me that it would be incredibly low, Lower than in North America given the laws and progressive stances in modern Germany.

However i've been searching around on the internet and frequently come upon Message boards filled with Germans who support National Socalism or Hitler. German language fourms. What's up with that?


I found a forum called "skadi.net" which proclaims it's a "German nationalist board" who's goal is to "secure the future of the german race". The board is filled with absurd racial classification systems and other mumbo jumbo I couldn't possibly comprehend. Has anyone heard of that message board?




I'm just wondering...For those of you living in Germany. Do you think Racism is more prominent in modern Germany or in Modern North America?

 

[Mephisto]

Dustin,

I hate that your thread went unanswered for so long - it's difficult to get people worked up about racists when there are Muslims or Israelis to hate.

I've read that the racist movement in Germany is pretty strong right now, and I think it's going to get a lot worse. The usual victims are Jews, Gypsies (Romani), Catholics or anyone that isn't a cookie-cutter version of what they believe constitutes a human being.

I frankly worry more about racists than I do Islamic terrorism simply because the American SW has a long history of racism and I can still encounter prejudice here everyday. I believe racism is much more common than terrorism and (believe it or not) you can even encounter some thinly-veiled racism here.

As for your question, I ran a quick Google search and here's what it turned up:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Skinheads+++Germany&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Apparently the skinheads in Germany are becoming bolder and clashes with police as well as citizens are on the rise. Isn't it nice when miscreant children can look back on the accomplishments of their grandparents with nostalgia?

 

[brodski]

I've read that the racist movement in Germany is pretty strong right now, and I think it's going to get a lot worse. The usual victims are Jews, Gypsies (Romani), Catholics or anyone that isn't a cookie-cutter version of what they believe constitutes a human being.

I belivethat the main targets tend to be Turkish "guest workers". There is also a lot of Nazi sympathy in the former East Germany.

 

[Mephisto]

I belivethat the main targets tend to be Turkish "guest workers". There is also a lot of Nazi sympathy in the former East Germany.

Thanks, brodski, I was hoping a European would fill us in.

I didn't know it was the Turkish in particular that were serving as the main Skinhead targets. I had read that the racists movement gained a lot of momentum when the Berlin wall came down and Eastern Europeans flooded Germany and other countries.

Apparently defeating Communism was only celebrated up until the streets were filled with the poor who immediately flooded the job market.

 

[brodski]

Thanks, brodski, I was hoping a European would fill us in.

I didn't know it was the Turkish in particular that were serving as the main Skinhead targets. I had read that the racists movement gained a lot of momentum when the Berlin wall came down and Eastern Europeans flooded Germany and other countries.

Apparently defeating Communism was only celebrated up until the streets were filled with the poor who immediately flooded the job market.

I don't claim any special knowledge, and I'm sure that the Germans on this board would have a much better insight, but the targets you mentioned where a little off base

The usual victims are Jews, Gypsies (Romani), Catholics or anyone that isn't a cookie-cutter version of what they believe constitutes a human being.

Due to the Nazi genocide there aren’t to many Jews or Roma in Germany to be targets of racists, I have personally never heard of much modern European anti-catholic racism outside of Northern Ireland and Scotland, and remember that Bavaria- which was a vary staunchly Nazi area of German, and it still very conservative, is predominantly Catholic (unlike the rest of Germany which is historically protestant, and Hitler's homeland, Austria is, or was, also predominantly Catholic). After the Second World War, the UK replaced it's dead workers with Immigrants from our colonies, in particular from the Indian sub-continent, and the Caribbean. These immigrants and those that followed in their footsteps have been the main targets for racism in the UK (outside of Irish/ Scottish sectarianism). In Germany much of the lost workforce was replaced by Turkish workers, however unlike immigrants into the UK, these workers where never allowed to become German citizens (hence "guest workers"), leading them to become a social underclass which further compounded racist attitudes.

 

[SwissSkeptic]

Here are some rough numbers from last year:

- There are currently 183 right-wing extremist organisations in Germany, combining 39'000 members.

- 21'000 voters are registrated in right-wing extremist parties (2'300 less than the year before).

- 10'400 right-wing extremists are considered to be potentially violent.

- In 2005 there were 15'361 crimes with a right-wing extremist background, 958 of which were violent acts (the rest were mostly propaganda offences, e.g. display of the swastika symbol).

- There are currently between 950 to 1000 german websites with right-wing extremist content.

All of that according to the German Office for the Protection of the Constitution.

ETA: For comparative purposes, the total population of Germany is 82.45 million.

 

[Mike B.]

ETA: For comparative purposes, the total population of Germany is 82.45 million.

I think that is the important point.

Racists get the attention because they are so provacitive.

I recall years ago a news report of a skin-head march in Germany. There was only a brief mention of an anti-racism rally down the street that outnumbered it a hundred-fold.

 

[Mike B.]

[/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
Due to the Nazi genocide there aren’t to many Jews or Roma in Germany to be targets of racists, I have personally never heard of much modern European anti-catholic racism outside of Northern Ireland and Scotland, and remember that Bavaria- which was a vary staunchly Nazi area of German, and it still very conservative, is predominantly Catholic (unlike the rest of Germany which is historically protestant, and Hitler's homeland, Austria is, or was, also predominantly Catholic).

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Catholic Parties in Germany the ones that refused to go along with the NSDAP? There was some Catholic resistance to the Nazis as Stauffenberg for instance was a devout Catholic.

 

[Luke T.]

I found a forum called "skadi.net" which proclaims it's a "German nationalist board" who's goal is to "secure the future of the german race".

Sounds like a variation of the white nationalist "14 words": We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.

The board is filled with absurd racial classification systems and other mumbo jumbo I couldn't possibly comprehend. Has anyone heard of that message board?

I haven't heard of that board, but I did spend quite a bit of time on the Stormfront forum a while back.

 

[SwissSkeptic]

Dustin,
Since you asked for opinions, here's mine:
I'm not German, but I live right across the German border and I've spent a lot of time in Germany in the past, due to German friends and girlfriends. In my experience, which is mostly limited to southern Germany, Germans in average tend to be if anything less racist than people on my side of the border. There also seems to be a higher public awareness for racism as a social problem than here. I can't compare it to North America as I've only been there on vacation, so I don't really know how prominent racism is there. What I can say is that I have the impression that racism in Germany is mostly practiced by small but often very loud fringe groups, while there seems to be more (sometimes subtle) "everyday" racism where I live.

Mike B.,
100% agreed.

 

[brodski]

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Catholic Parties in Germany the ones that refused to go along with the NSDAP? There was some Catholic resistance to the Nazis as Stauffenberg for instance was a devout Catholic.

I am not claiming that Catholics did not oppose Nazism, or that all German Catholics where Nazis, merely that anti-Catholic bigotry doesn’t fit in well with the mythologies of the Neo-Nazis. I am not aware of any modern anti-catholic racism in Europe, outside of the UK.

 

[Mephisto]

I don't claim any special knowledge, and I'm sure that the Germans on this board would have a much better insight, but the targets you mentioned where a little off base
[/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
Due to the Nazi genocide there aren’t to many Jews or Roma in Germany to be targets of racists, I have personally never heard of much modern European anti-catholic racism outside of Northern Ireland and Scotland, and remember that Bavaria- which was a vary staunchly Nazi area of German, and it still very conservative, is predominantly Catholic (unlike the rest of Germany which is historically protestant, and Hitler's homeland, Austria is, or was, also predominantly Catholic). After the Second World War, the UK replaced it's dead workers with Immigrants from our colonies, in particular from the Indian sub-continent, and the Caribbean. These immigrants and those that followed in their footsteps have been the main targets for racism in the UK (outside of Irish/ Scottish sectarianism). In Germany much of the lost workforce was replaced by Turkish workers, however unlike immigrants into the UK, these workers where never allowed to become German citizens (hence "guest workers"), leading them to become a social underclass which further compounded racist attitudes.

Thanks for the info, brodski - I'll have to admit I'm a little rusty on my European history after WWII, and it's difficult to get any news items not directly related to terrorism since 9/11.

 

[cgordon]

Yeah, there's some racism here, and it sems to be a skin-head, national socialist minority with a very loud (and bad-mannered) voice. There are quieter examples, sure, but in large the Germans I know are pretty tolerant.

 

[Mephisto]

I think that is the important point.

Racists get the attention because they are so provacitive.

I recall years ago a news report of a skin-head march in Germany. There was only a brief mention of an anti-racism rally down the street that outnumbered it a hundred-fold.

The same could be said for Islamic terrorism. A relatively small percentage of Muslims are fanatics willing to harm innocent people, but that number (a large number if you want to believe there are terrorists after you) is always ominous to alarmists.

I have proven over and over that there are moderate Muslims in the world, and even Muslims who are willing to help Americans/Westerners, but it falls on deaf ears when speaking to anyone who is positive that all Muslims are simply waiting for the right time to kill.

As I said earlier, racism is much more prevalent than terrorism around me, and it sometimes affects me personally, whereas Islamic terrorism is a minor concern to someone who lives in a city the Islamic fundies don't even know exists.

 

[Mike B.]

I am not claiming that Catholics did not oppose Nazism, or that all German Catholics where Nazis, merely that anti-Catholic bigotry doesn’t fit in well with the mythologies of the Neo-Nazis. I am not aware of any modern anti-catholic racism in Europe, outside of the UK.

I know you didn't mean that.

I was just asking a question.

 

[brodski]

I know you didn't mean that.

I was just asking a question.

Sorry, I could tell that you weren’t claiming that, but rereading the post you quoted I could see that my post could have been interpreted that way. I was just trying to clarify my position. J

 

[ZeeGerman]

Dustin,
Since you asked for opinions, here's mine:
I'm not German, but I live right across the German border and I've spent a lot of time in Germany in the past, due to German friends and girlfriends. In my experience, which is mostly limited to southern Germany, Germans in average tend to be if anything less racist than people on my side of the border. There also seems to be a higher public awareness for racism as a social problem than here. I can't compare it to North America as I've only been there on vacation, so I don't really know how prominent racism is there. What I can say is that I have the impression that racism in Germany is mostly practiced by small but often very loud fringe groups, while there seems to be more (sometimes subtle) "everyday" racism where I live.

Mike B.,
100% agreed.

That sums it up pretty well, thanks Swiss.

Victims of neo nazism in germany are mostly foreigners, especially blacks and asians. Also, gays and homeless suffer a lot. Jews in Germany are hardly recognizable as such, so most atacks are against buildings and grave yards and such.
The problem is strongest in the eastern parts that joined the republic after 1989 but it's present in the western parts as well.

Awareness of the problem is pretty high imo, so although every incident is tragic and fills me with anger, I'm not worried that these people will gain significant influence.

Zee

 

[SwissSkeptic]

Dustin (and anybody else who's interested), you might want to read the Annual Report of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution. Here's the english version of the 2004 report. Pages 21 to 115 cover right-wing extremism, neonazism and anti-semitism.

 

[Mycroft]

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Catholic Parties in Germany the ones that refused to go along with the NSDAP? There was some Catholic resistance to the Nazis as Stauffenberg for instance was a devout Catholic.

I believe you're thinking of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. While certainly many individual Catholics resisted, IIRC the Catholic Church as a whole is criticized for looking the other way.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Here's a link to the Forum I mentioned.

http://forum.skadi.net


Tell me what you think of it.