Actor Everett labels Starbucks a 'cancer'

[Meadmaker]

Only 50%? Failed product.

I wish I had made as much money as the people who marketed that failure.

 

[CFLarsen]

Just to be clear...you're claiming the VCR is a failed product because 50% of people couldn't program it to tape shows airing at a later time?

The lack of a workable UI makes it a failed product.

There is nothing wrong with the technology itself. That works remarkably well.

 

[CFLarsen]

I wish I had made as much money as the people who marketed that failure.

What is odd is that consumers accept these unworkable products. It isn't merely VCRs, we see unworkable products everywhere. Computer "products" - software and websites in particular - are expecially notorious for their inaccessible interfaces.

The strange thing is, it isn't all that difficult to design a much better UI, provided you are willing to change the way a product is made. Far too often, things are designed by people who have absolutely no idea what UI is and should do.

 

[Darat]

Only 50%? Failed product.

I take it this is an ironic answer given the VCR is one of the most successful consumer electronic devices ever?

 

[HarryKeogh]

I take it this is an ironic answer given the VCR is one of the most successful consumer electronic devices ever?

You would think but no...he's serious. Forget that it changed how people watched movies at home, that it gave people (who bothered to read the instruction manual) the power to record their shows when away from the TV, launched the video rental business and made manufacturers, retailers and movie studios billions of dollars...it was a failure because some people couldn't figure out how to make it record a show that aired in the future.

Funny thing is you just know he had a VCR in his house (like the rest of us) in the 80s and 90s. Guess he likes using failed products.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

People are never lured by anything else than a superior product?

Betamax, anyone?

Who in this thread said they are never lured by anything else than a superior product?

Someone suggested just the opposite....

I suspect it is because people always know (or think they know) what their getting...Starbuck's coffee is always essentially the same, a big mac is always essentially a big mac. Just a theory...I'm sure there are many other factors...advertising saturation, infatuation with icons and brands, laziness, etc.

 

[Obsequious]

It is a failed product only if consumers purchased it specifically to use that feature. Do you have evidence that sufficient consumers purchased VHS machines specifically for this feature that the 50% rate of inability to use the feature is significant?

I've never bought a VCR specifically to time-shift record, which suggests to me the possibility that others may not have purchased their VCRs specifically for that feature. Thus, if I could not program it, it would not be a failed product for me. It could still perform all of the functions for which I purchased it.

In terms of the user interface, do people really have such a hard time with VCRs? I've never found them very difficult to program and most of the people I know just can't be bothered to take the 30 seconds required to look at the available options to find the right one. It may not be espeically efficient or intuitive, but it's not exactly neurosurgery to figure it out. Is laziness or a difficult UI the real culprit?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Can we now compare other dead technologies? I'll start...8-track vs. Reel-to-Reel. Discuss.

Model T vs Model A?

 

[CFLarsen]

I take it this is an ironic answer given the VCR is one of the most successful consumer electronic devices ever?

Yeah. But think about how much frustration it also has caused. And, of course, wasted resources spent on a function that people can't use.

You would think but no...he's serious. Forget that it changed how people watched movies at home, that it gave people (who bothered to read the instruction manual)

Now that you mention it: Manuals are notoriously difficult to understand. I even keep and collect manuals for the worst products, to illustrate just how wrong it can go. How's that for dedication to your work?

the power to record their shows when away from the TV, launched the video rental business and made manufacturers, retailers and movie studios billions of dollars...it was a failure because some people couldn't figure out how to make it record a show that aired in the future.

Funny thing is you just know he had a VCR in his house (like the rest of us) in the 80s and 90s. Guess he likes using failed products.

Actually, I do. Because it emphasizes my point about how bad UIs make our lives more complicated than they could have been.

As long as people accept lousy designed UIs, I will not go hungry. So, in a way, I'm grateful for people's attitudes here...

 

[Thanz]

You are missing the point entirely. VCRs were sold on the concept of time-shifting. Not merely because you could record what your telly showed.

You are missing the point entirely. Longer tapes are better for recording. Whether you program it, or stick a tape in and walk away, or watch and record at the same time, longer tapes are better. Video quality is a secondary consideration.

You clearly haven't read the articles I linked to. Your loss, not mine.

Actually, I have. And none of them mentions anything about the ability of people to program VCRs during the VHS/Beta consumer battle. Not one. Unless you can quote me something relevant - and explain why it is relevant - you are speaking out of your buttocks.

It is not my problem if you can't keep up. Your loss, not mine.

Your problem is relying on irrelevant data. It is not a question of me keeping up. It is a question of you pointing to irrelevant crap to support some BS argument. If I asked a question about the War of 1812, would you answer with an article on the Vietnam War?

If that is true, then we can simply shut down all stores and fire all sales representatives.

How does that possibly flow from what I said? Can a consumer not get information from stores and sales reps?

Obviously, you are wrong.

Obviously, you are off your nut.

The problem with programming a VCR has always existed. This is the point you keep missing. Perhaps willingly?

Any evidence for that? That's what you keep missing. Perhaps willingly?

Don't you think that at a time when the primary purpose of a VCR was timeshifting, that those who bought it could timeshift? that they took the time to learn how to do it? and that when the primary use shifted to watching pre-recorded content, fewer people bothered to learn how to use it to timeshift?

That's not what I asked. I asked if 50% couldn't operate their car, what then?

I know that is not what you asked - what you asked made no sense. It is not analogous, nor does it mean anything. People who don't know how to operate a car don't buy a car. People who don't know how to program a VCR still buy a VCR to do other things with it - like play prerecorded content.

 

[CFLarsen]

You are missing the point entirely. Longer tapes are better for recording. Whether you program it, or stick a tape in and walk away, or watch and record at the same time, longer tapes are better. Video quality is a secondary consideration.

I disagree.

I've provided evidence, you have provided your unfounded opinion. Now, what?

Actually, I have. And none of them mentions anything about the ability of people to program VCRs during the VHS/Beta consumer battle. Not one. Unless you can quote me something relevant - and explain why it is relevant - you are speaking out of your buttocks.

You clearly haven't read the links. Not my problem.

But, just for the sake of amusement, let's go with the idea that, during the VHS/Beta Battle, programming VCRs was not an issue. Then, it did become an issue.

Could you explain when that happened?

Your problem is relying on irrelevant data. It is not a question of me keeping up. It is a question of you pointing to irrelevant crap to support some BS argument. If I asked a question about the War of 1812, would you answer with an article on the Vietnam War?

Your loss, not mine.

How does that possibly flow from what I said? Can a consumer not get information from stores and sales reps?

Sure, they can. But your needs are fueled by the information you get from the sales people you ask for advice. You are not immune to advertising.

Obviously, you are off your nut.

Sure, argue that you are immune to advertising. See if anyone believes you.

Any evidence for that? That's what you keep missing. Perhaps willingly?

You have made it clear that you do not want to read the links. Not my problem.

Don't you think that at a time when the primary purpose of a VCR was timeshifting, that those who bought it could timeshift? that they took the time to learn how to do it? and that when the primary use shifted to watching pre-recorded content, fewer people bothered to learn how to use it to timeshift?

Evidence?

I know that is not what you asked - what you asked made no sense. It is not analogous, nor does it mean anything. People who don't know how to operate a car don't buy a car. People who don't know how to program a VCR still buy a VCR to do other things with it - like play prerecorded content.

Ignore the question. Not my problem.

 

[Thanz]

I disagree.

I've provided evidence, you have provided your unfounded opinion. Now, what?

You have not provided evidence - you have provided your opinion that Beta was a superior product. The article posted by Darat puts the failure of Beta squarely on the shoulders of tape length, and says that Beta was not a superior product when you look at the whole product.

You clearly haven't read the links. Not my problem.

Bald assertion. Quote something from them to prove me wrong. If you can't do that, you are simply a liar.

But, just for the sake of amusement, let's go with the idea that, during the VHS/Beta Battle, programming VCRs was not an issue. Then, it did become an issue.

Could you explain when that happened?

I disagree that it is an issue even now - at least to the extent that you make out. The people don't use their VCR to timeshift are made up of 2 subgroups - those who don't bother, and those who can't figure it out. You are placing them all in the "can't figure it out" category, while I think that more are in the "don't bother" category.

Sure, they can. But your needs are fueled by the information you get from the sales people you ask for advice. You are not immune to advertising.

My needs are fueled by my needs. My desires may be affected by what the salesperson tells me (such as telling me about a feature I didn't know about). But you haven't answered why your statement flows from mine, or how that makes all consumers the mindless sheep you presume them to be.

You have made it clear that you do not want to read the links. Not my problem.

I have read them. Prove me wrong by quoting something relevant from them, if you can.

Evidence?

It is called a logical argument. I know you have no familiarity with them, so I can understand why you missed that.

Ignore the question. Not my problem.

No, your problem is that you can't understand why your question is totally irrelevant.

 

[CFLarsen]

You have not provided evidence - you have provided your opinion that Beta was a superior product. The article posted by Darat puts the failure of Beta squarely on the shoulders of tape length, and says that Beta was not a superior product when you look at the whole product.

Bald assertion. Quote something from them to prove me wrong. If you can't do that, you are simply a liar.

I disagree that it is an issue even now - at least to the extent that you make out. The people don't use their VCR to timeshift are made up of 2 subgroups - those who don't bother, and those who can't figure it out. You are placing them all in the "can't figure it out" category, while I think that more are in the "don't bother" category.


My needs are fueled by my needs. My desires may be affected by what the salesperson tells me (such as telling me about a feature I didn't know about). But you haven't answered why your statement flows from mine, or how that makes all consumers the mindless sheep you presume them to be.


I have read them. Prove me wrong by quoting something relevant from them, if you can.

It is called a logical argument. I know you have no familiarity with them, so I can understand why you missed that.

No, your problem is that you can't understand why your question is totally irrelevant.

O.....K.

This leads nowhere. You are clearly not interested in providing evidence of your claims. You are clearly not interested in looking at the evidence. You are definitely not interested in considering if you could be wrong or not.

Not that I am in any way surprised, but - nevertheless, do you have a final point?

 

[Katana]

Yeah. But think about how much frustration it also has caused. And, of course, wasted resources spent on a function that people can't use.

Honestly, I have had more frustration lately with DVD rentals than I ever did with VHS. What the hell do people do to DVDs at home? You take it out of the package, you put it in the player, press play, watch movie, remove the DVD, and put it back in the package. How in the hell do people screw them up? Sometimes it looks like people took a key to the thing. I would say that seriously roughly 50% of DVDs that we have rented recently either didn't play at all or kept getting stuck and restarting the scene. Very seldom happened with VHS rentals-the picture might not have been the best every time, especially with older movies, but at least they played.

So infuriating.

Oh, and I learned to record on my parent's VCR (very quickly I might add). I was a bit of a Dallas fan as a child. Didn't want to miss an episode. I'll admit it. I had a huge crush on Bobby Ewing.

 

[CFLarsen]

Honestly, I have had more frustration lately with DVD rentals than I ever did with VHS. What the hell do people do to DVDs at home? You take it out of the package, you put it in the player, press play, watch movie, remove the DVD, and put it back in the package. How in the hell do people screw them up? Sometimes it looks like people took a key to the thing. I would say that seriously roughly 50% of DVDs that we have rented recently either didn't play at all or kept getting stuck and restarting the scene. Very seldom happened with VHS rentals-the picture might not have been the best every time, especially with older movies, but at least they played.

So infuriating.

Proves my point: UI still has a loooong way to go....and I won't go hungry any day soon...

Oh, and I learned to record on my parent's VCR (very quickly I might add). I was a bit of a Dallas fan as a child. Didn't want to miss an episode. I'll admit it. I had a huge crush on Bobby Ewing.[qimg]http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/love/586.gif[/qimg]

I hope you understand that this.....confession (no other word suffices)....totally undermines your claim to being a credible witness?

 

[Grammatron]

O.....K.

This leads nowhere. You are clearly not interested in providing evidence of your claims. You are clearly not interested in looking at the evidence. You are definitely not interested in considering if you could be wrong or not.

Not that I am in any way surprised, but - nevertheless, do you have a final point?

I do: is that the impression you got after accidently reading your own post(s)?

 

[HarryKeogh]

do you have a final point?

Yes. In a world of two hour movies and three hour long sporting events Beta deserved its fate. It became a punchline to a joke while VHS was a staple in the majority of homes in North America and Western Europe. The majority of consumers decided a machine that delivered a very good picture along with more choices in pre-recorded movies and practical recording time lengths was a better value than one that provided a marginally better picture.

Honestly, I have had more frustration lately with DVD rentals than I ever did with VHS. What the hell do people do to DVDs at home? You take it out of the package, you put it in the player, press play, watch movie, remove the DVD, and put it back in the package. How in the hell do people screw them up? Sometimes it looks like people took a key to the thing. I would say that seriously roughly 50% of DVDs that we have rented recently either didn't play at all or kept getting stuck and restarting the scene.

That's because people suck and think that just because they don't own them they could throw it around like they're playing Frisbee with their dog in San Francisco circa 1974.

But you may want to check your DVD player. My DVD player (a pretty cheap model) could read through most scratched disks okay. I wouuld guess my Netflix fail rate at about 5%.

 

[Thanz]

O.....K.

This leads nowhere. You are clearly not interested in providing evidence of your claims. You are clearly not interested in looking at the evidence. You are definitely not interested in considering if you could be wrong or not.

Not that I am in any way surprised, but - nevertheless, do you have a final point?

I am perfectly willing to consider that I am wrong. I have read your articles, and none of them address whether people could program VCRs when they came out or not, despite your repeated bluster. I have invited you more than once to quote one of them and show that I am wrong. Yet, despite the bluster, you refuse to do this and hide behind an empty claim that I haven't read your articles. If you had any integrity, you would either post a quote that shows I am wrong or admit that your articles do not address the point.

As to whether it leads nowhere, well, I lay this at your feet as well. It is you who refuses to admit you may be wrong - on this thread, and many others as well. I keep thinking that maybe one of these days you will sya "Huh. Guess I was wrong about that. Sorry for arguing for 10 pages for an untenable position."

Back on topic, my final point is this: Beta may have had one superior aspect (video quality) but it was deficient in others (length of recording time, and later, availablility of content). Your assertion that it was a superior product based on the one aspect (video quality) is erroneous when one considers the whole product and the features that consumers wanted. Beta dying out is not an example of dumb consumers ignoring a superior product - it is an example of the market showing what the more important features of the product are, no matter what your choice may have been.

 

[Katana]

I hope you understand that this.....confession (no other word suffices)....totally undermines your claim to being a credible witness?

Booo!

Meany.

Mmm. Dreamy.

Sorry. Just trying to lighten things up.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Honestly, I have had more frustration lately with DVD rentals than I ever did with VHS. What the hell do people do to DVDs at home? You take it out of the package, you put it in the player, press play, watch movie, remove the DVD, and put it back in the package. How in the hell do people screw them up? Sometimes it looks like people took a key to the thing. I would say that seriously roughly 50% of DVDs that we have rented recently either didn't play at all or kept getting stuck and restarting the scene. Very seldom happened with VHS rentals-the picture might not have been the best every time, especially with older movies, but at least they played.

So infuriating.

Indeed. This is all strictly anecdotal, but I have seen several rental DVDs with smudge marks and scratches all over them. Here's what I recommend and what I have done successfully in the past (it can't hurt, but it may or may not work all of the time):

Carefully handle the DVD by the edges, take it to your kitchen sink, and run some warm (not hot) water over it and put a little bit of non-abrasive dish-washing liquid (the kind you use in the sink, not in the automatic dishwasher) on it. Gently wash both sides of the DVD with your clean fingers, and make sure you get all the smudges and soap off. Fling as much of the water off while holding the DVD, then gently blot the rest of the water off with a soft terry cloth towel, but do not rub it. Blot it only.

Once the DVD is dry, you can safely insert it into your player. In many cases, this will solve the hanging or skipping problem. In others, it may not. In any event, assuming the thing already has scratches and/or smudges, it shouldn't harm the DVD further.

Good luck.

AS