Terrorists Thank Germany

[JamesDillon]

Let's hear it again, all you guys on the left: Islamist rage at the west is fueled by the Iraq invasion. They're reasonable people; if we would just stop pissing them off, they'd stop trying to commit mass murder.

The words "straw man" are the most frequently abused words in the English language on this forum, but I would point out that it's perfectly possible to believe the first part of that statement without accepting the latter, a belief that the German incident provides no evidence against.

 

[Mephisto]

Who does? The problem is not the Muslims who aren't fanatics. It's the copious number who are.

So what's the problem then? The problem is not people who aren't murderers, it's the copious number who are. When the terrorist attack us, we kill them - that, however, doesn't give us the right to stroll into their country and start killing people. We take care of them when they present themselves just like car thieves and armed robbers. Claiming that the best offense is a good defense apparently doesn't go well with this crowd who now expects someone else to "fix their mess" while continuing to find better ways to kill more people.

btw. If it's any consolation, if a Muslim fanatic gets a to take a shot at you some day he might very well tell you that it's "nothing personal" right before he pulls the trigger.

Heh! Not like that's never been done before. You don't believe that soldiers always take it personally when they're wounded, do you? Sometimes it's bad tactics, sometimes it's over-confidence and sometimes it's plain bad luck. Of course, sometimes it's just people on both sides who are good at their jobs.

To be honest, I'd rather be killed by a single bullet from a sniper so far away I'd be dead before anyone heard the report. If I provide the impetus and the target, it's the best way to IMO die. Of course, I do live in a concealed-carry state, so if I'm not dead . . .

 

[BPSCG]

The words "straw man" are the most frequently abused words in the English language on this forum, but I would point out that it's perfectly possible to believe the first part of that statement without accepting the latter, a belief that the German incident provides no evidence against.

So it would appear that there are a whole host of things that can inspire Islamist rage, to wit:

• Iraq invasion;
• Involvement in Lebanon;
• History of western interference in middle eastern affairs;
• Cartoons

Have I left anything out? I'd really like to know what I have to do to buy the Islamists' goodwill. I'm sure they can be appeased somehow. They are, after all, rational and reasonable people.

 

[marksman]

You forgot opposing Iran's "nuclear power research", which, according to Darat, may be the reason Germany was targeted.

 

[bob_kark]

Since we're throwing Straw Men around like candy, let's try this. I suppose it makes Muslims happy when we torture, degrade, and oppress them, call for a crusade, blaspheme against Islam, and bomb their mosques. Then all the happy little Muslims can gather 'round and sing camp fire songs praising our wonderful democracy. Kumbayah Allah, Kumbayah!!

 

[marksman]

When the terrorist attack us, we kill them - that, however, doesn't give us the right to stroll into their country and start killing people.

Since we all appear to agree that Saddam Hussein and Iraq were not linked to Al Qaeda prior to the US invasion, are you referring to the invasion of Aghanistan? I'm honestly confused.

The Iraq War may have been an unwise or wise decision. But the fact that Muslim extremists use it as a rallying cry doesn't make it so or not so. As others have pointed out everything the West does or fails to do (or appears to do or appears to fail to do) is a potential rallying cry for Muslim extremists.

Trying to avoid creating rallying cries is futile. That doesn't mean invading Iraq was a good idea or not. Whether the Iraq invasion is a good thing or not would have to be judged by other standards.

 

[Katana]

So it would appear that there are a whole host of things that can inspire Islamist rage, to wit:

• Iraq invasion;
• Involvement in Lebanon;
• History of western interference in middle eastern affairs;
• Cartoons

Have I left anything out? I'd really like to know what I have to do to buy the Islamists' goodwill. I'm sure they can be appeased somehow. They are, after all, rational and reasonable people.

Wait! I thought of a few more...

• Bush's face (well, that can kinda set me off, too )
• Israel's existence
• Narcissistic sense of victimization combined with a little conspiracy theory
• Happy women anywhere
• Cartoons...oh, wait. You said that.

 

[NeilC]

The Iraq War may have been an unwise or wise decision. But the fact that Muslim extremists use it as a rallying cry doesn't make it so or not so. As others have pointed out everything the West does or fails to do (or appears to do or appears to fail to do) is a potential rallying cry for Muslim extremists.

I think it does rather. And it's not just down to people using it as a rallying cry but as yet another example of western politics that enrages most muslims, not just the complete nutters.

I think we have to accept that when so many people have a grievance against us that they might be a little bit of justification in that feeling even if it's purely from their perspective. From the arab point of view there has been a history of injustice from the west. This creates the pool of people from which the terrorists recruit and gain more tacit support. By taking a more morally defensible foreign policy we not only take away some of that pool but damage their moral justification in the eyes of the rest of the world too. It's much easier to win when everyone thinks you are the reasonable one. Funding every idiotic Israeli action and invading arab countries is making things worse. And more importantly - it has not helped one jot.

Surely you either burn the wasps nest or leave it alone. Poking it with a stick is stupid.

 

[Mephisto]

Whether the Iraq invasion is a good thing or not would have to be judged by other standards.

Like whether gasoline drops back down to $1.00 a gallon or when the Iraqi people are hanging pictures of George W. Bush in all the squares in their cities?

 

[EBU]

Being able to locate leftist blogs that make outrageous claims about the cause of terrorism is not a logically defensible reason to make a statement about what "all you guys on the left" believe. Apparently, there are many guys on the left in this forum who do not subscribe to those beliefs. Just as there are many guys on the right in this forum who do not subscribe to the outrageous beliefs that you can easily find on right wing blogs.

 

[NeilC]

They don't need to win iraq, they just have to immigrate at the current rates for a bit longer while Blair takes it up the arse from them and bob's yer uncle.

 

[BPSCG]

Since we all appear to agree that Saddam Hussein and Iraq were not linked to Al Qaeda prior to the US invasion

Uh, no, we're not. The 9/11 Commission Report explicitly stated that Saddam and al Qaeda did have significant ties prior to September 11, 2001. What they did not find was that Saddam had any role in the September 11 attacks.

 

[Tony]

Actually, I believe it does work, or, more accurately, it's one of the things that in toto, does work.

If it works, why are there still terror plots in Western countries?

 

[marksman]

Uh, no, we're not. The 9/11 Commission Report explicitly stated that Saddam and al Qaeda did have significant ties prior to September 11, 2001. What they did not find was that Saddam had any role in the September 11 attacks.

No, it didn't. From Section 10.3: Phase 2 and the Question of Iraq from the 9/11 Commission Report

There was "no 'compelling case' that Iraq had either planned or perpetrated the attacks.... the case for links between Iraq and Al Qaeda was weak... there was no confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Laden on unconventional weapons."

In Chapter 2 of the Report, the Commission reported all of the contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda and concluded...

"But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence that Iraq cooperated with Al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States."

That's what the Commission reported.

 

[BPSCG]

If it works, why are there still terror plots in Western countries?

Sorry, but that's an unanswerable question. I could say there would be a lot more terror plots if we weren't in Iraq, but that would be an unprovable assertion. The fact is, in the absence of a properly-controlled experiment, we just don't know. That's why I said I believe it works.

 

[marksman]

Just to be clear. I understand you agree that Iraq was uninvolved with Al Qaeda in the 9/11 attacks. But the 9/11 Commission did not find "significant" ties between Al Qaeda and Iraq in any event. There were communications back and forth, but they are nowhere described as "significant." Their realtionship, as described by the Report, was, at best, weak and undeveloped.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Wait! I thought of a few more...

• Bush's face (well, that can kinda set me off, too )
• Israel's existence
• Narcissistic sense of victimization combined with a little conspiracy theory
• Happy women anywhere
• Cartoons...oh, wait. You said that.

Also missing is the existence of infidels anywhere on the planet. All we have to do is drink a lot of Kool-Aid and we'll make Allah and the radical Muslims happy.

AS

 

[BPSCG]

Just to be clear. I understand you agree that Iraq was uninvolved with Al Qaeda in the 9/11 attacks. But the 9/11 Commission did not find "significant" ties between Al Qaeda and Iraq in any event. There were communications back and forth, but they are nowhere described as "significant." Their realtionship, as described by the Report, was, at best, weak and undeveloped.

You're right. They explored working together, at some length, and over a period of several years, but never had enough of a confluence of interests, according to the 9/11 Commission. It certainly wasn't for lack of desire or failure of initiative.

Other investigators have found more substantive links. I haven't looked at them in much depth, so I can't pass on them (I'm thinking in particular of Steven Hayes's research for The Weekly Standard).

 

[Crossbow]

Uh, no, we're not. The 9/11 Commission Report explicitly stated that Saddam and al Qaeda did have significant ties prior to September 11, 2001. What they did not find was that Saddam had any role in the September 11 attacks.

Oh really?

My copy of the The 9/11 Commission Report does not provide any evidence which shows that Iraq supported the 9/11 attackers or vice versa in any real way. In fact, it says quite the opposite.

From page 66

... But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating the Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.

...

And from page 351

... Arguing that the case for links between Iraq and al Qaeda was weak, the memo pointed out that Bin Laden resented the secularism of Saddam Hussein's regime. Finally, the memo, said there was no confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Laden on unconventional weapons.

...

Perhaps you were provided with a different version of The 9/11 Commission Report than the rest of the world was provided.
Or perhaps, you simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

[BPSCG]

It proves that no non-islamic group is safe, despite it's political standing and past actions. I guess that even some islamic groups are not safe.

You forgot opposing Iran's "nuclear power research", which, according to Darat, may be the reason Germany was targeted.

Wait! I thought of a few more...

• Bush's face (well, that can kinda set me off, too )
• Israel's existence
• Narcissistic sense of victimization combined with a little conspiracy theory
• Happy women anywhere
• Cartoons...oh, wait. You said that.

Also missing is the existence of infidels anywhere on the planet. All we have to do is drink a lot of Kool-Aid and we'll make Allah and the radical Muslims happy.

AS

Now, are the Germans are starting to get the message?