• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

christianity and depression

As far as I know he's not, but over in Thailand, people treat him just like a god. They pray to him, make offerings, build temples, hold ceremonies.

that betrays a fundamental lack of understanding about buddhism, akin to a Thai tourist surmising that catholics treat Mary like a god, because they see a lady praying to her statue in a church.......
 
if you don't know much about Buddhism, I'd encourage you to look into it (no hard sales pitch - it's something that's helped me that's all :) )

Thanks for that! I do own The Tao of Pooh.....and have always found it very interesting. One of my profs is Buddhist. He's always so calm.


(And thanks for the honor you have done me, re sig. I feel so special. :))
 
i'm merely pointing out that the monothestic religions seem to offer coping mechanisms which could be seen as detrimental to the Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle - certainly when compared to Buddhism...

Well, personally I don't see it. It's not that Christian's don't experience grief, they are just instructed "do not grieve as one who has no hope."

I do believe that a lot of monothestic hope is based on false promises -
"if you pray for someone, God can save them...."
"If you're a good christian, God will look after you"
etc. etc. These sort of beliefs do offer hope - but it is a false hope - and will let you down at the moment you need it most - ie. moments of grief where you have to contend with being let down by god as well....

Then there's the set of promises that say, "God's power is perfected in weakness." In other words, life's going to bust your balls, but you'll be alright in the long run.

I suppose a christian would disagree with the assertion that it's false hope, and perhaps would argue that "god really does answer your prayers"....but how to explain when your prayers aren't answered? Didn't you pray hard enough? Weren't you a good enough christian? It brings personal responsibility onto external events - which is detrimental to coping with depression.....

Actually it's a tool, not unlike any other tool for dealing with grief. Making sense of the loss is part of the healing process. Again, I'll take that over any belief that rests on the underlying premise: "I shouldn't have tried to cling onto this person as much as I did because now it hurts more."
 
Then there's the set of promises that say, "God's power is perfected in weakness." In other words, life's going to bust your balls, but you'll be alright in the long run.

but you accept that these contradictory messages are hardly helpful in the grief process....?



Actually it's a tool, not unlike any other tool for dealing with grief. Making sense of the loss is part of the healing process. Again, I'll take that over any belief that rests on the underlying premise: "I shouldn't have tried to cling onto this person as much as I did because now it hurts more."

it's rather tiresome that you keep wilfully misrepresenting buddhist ideology in order to argue your point.....

Buddhism is about the acceptance of suffering, not, as you try to imply, distancing oneself from suffering.
 
What is escapism to you, as relating to death, Stamenflicker?
 
well, I'll be damned, whilst looking for some evidence to back up my OP claim I found this (somewhat encouraging) article.....

Guilt, discord, and alienation: the role of
religious strain in depression and suicidality
by
Exline JJ, Yali AM, Sanderson WC
Department of Psychology,
Case Western Reserve University,
Cleveland, OH 44106-7123, USA.
J Clin Psychol 2000 Dec; 56(12):1481-96

ABSTRACT
Although religion is usually portrayed as a source of comfort, individuals may also experience strain in their religious lives. Associations between religious variables and psychological distress were examined within two groups: a nonclinical sample of 200 college students and a clinical sample of 54 persons seeking outpatient psychotherapy. Participants reported more comfort than strain associated with religion. Religious strain was associated with greater depression and suicidality, regardless of religiosity levels or the degree of comfort found in religion. Depression was associated with feelings of alienation from God and, among students, with interpersonal conflicts on religious domains. Suicidality was associated with religious fear and guilt, particularly with belief in having committed an unforgivable sin. Religious strain, along with religiosity, was associated with greater interest in addressing religious issues in psychotherapy. These results highlight the role of religious strain as a potentially important indicator of psychological distress.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/religion.htm

but, i also came across a couple of articles, which seem to show the opposite....of course, they are not comparing Buddhism to say christianity, but rather, religion to non-religion.......but nonetheless they are pretty interesting......

Many studies have linked a lack of religiosity to depression. Religious commitment is associated with a reduced incidence of depression13 and a quicker recovery from depressive illness for the elderly.15 Two separate reviews of the literature have supported this: those with high levels of "religious involvement", "religious salience" and "intrinsic religious motivation" were at reduced risk,14 and religious commitment was inversely related to suicide risk in 13 of 16 studies reviewed.13 One study showed a fourfold increased risk of suicide for non-churchgoers compared with regular attenders,22 and no study has shown an increased risk of suicide among churchgoers.

The reasons why people with a sense of religious commitment are less likely to become depressed may include a feeling of social connectedness, exposure to messages about healthy living, or perhaps the reduced exposure to drug-taking behaviour. However, studies controlling for these factors have still found religiosity to be independently protective. So there may be other reasons, such as the comfort that comes from believing in a benevolent and caring God, the view that justice always prevails in the end, or that adverse events always have a meaning and a message. Such attitudes would buffer enormously against the ill-effects of life stresses and the depression that often follows.
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_10_201100/hassed/hassed.html


Philadelphia–Depressed seniors who believe their life is guided by a larger spiritual force have significantly fewer symptoms of depression than those who do not use religious coping strategies. Moreover, this relationship is independent of the amount of social support those individuals receive, according to results of a prospective study presented at the 2002 annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association.

"This is a pretty remarkable study–and when you see these kind of data coming out from both medical and psychiatric populations, it’s hard to continue ignoring religion as a variable in the recovery from depression," said Harold G. Koenig, MD, associate professor of psychiatry and of medicine at Duke University Medical Center, Durham, N.C.

According to study author Hayden Bosworth, PhD, attempts in the literature to distinguish the effects of religion from the effects of social support on depression have led to mixed success (Husaini BA et al. Int J Aging Hum Dev 1999;48:63-72). Dr. Bosworth, associate director, health services research and development, Durham Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and his colleagues attempted to address the issue by examining the effects of religious practices, coping mechanisms and social support on recovery among individuals diagnosed with major depression.

"These results indicate that clinicians should encourage reconnection with religion as a way of coping in patients whose spirituality has been important to them," concluded Dr. Bosworth.

"Physicians need to pay attention to their patients’ religious beliefs and practices," added Dr. Koenig. "Rather than continuing to see it as a liability or unhealthy crutch, they should see it as a potential strength in overcoming depression."
http://www.mental-health-today.com/articles/spirituality.htm

so, perhaps i should be asking, despite the arguments of the OP why does religion (and one assumes from the studie that it's largely christianity) seem to help in the grief cycle?

and how would christianity compare to buddhism?
 
but you accept that these contradictory messages are hardly helpful in the grief process....?

Could you rephrase that? I mean, if you are saying do I accept that this paradox is helpful in the grief process, yes.

it's rather tiresome that you keep wilfully misrepresenting buddhist ideology in order to argue your point.....

Then I withdraw my comments; I meant no disrespect. I will allow to espouse the views of the buddhist.

Buddhism is about the acceptance of suffering, not, as you try to imply, distancing oneself from suffering.

Yeah, but we're not allowed to accept that it sucks, right?
 
Last edited:
What is escapism to you, as relating to death, Stamenflicker?

I don't understand the question. Sorry.

If you mean how does one escape death, then I dunno. Seems silly to me to think on these things.

If you mean escapism relating to the grief process when faced with a loved one dying, then it's different for different people. And yes, I've seen a handful of Christians totally escape reality using their Bibles.

If you mean escapism regarding our own eventual demise, then guilty as charged in that I don't believe death is the final word.
 
I don't understand the question. Sorry.

If you mean how does one escape death, then I dunno. Seems silly to me to think on these things.

If you mean escapism relating to the grief process when faced with a loved one dying, then it's different for different people. And yes, I've seen a handful of Christians totally escape reality using their Bibles.

If you mean escapism regarding our own eventual demise, then guilty as charged in that I don't believe death is the final word.

I'm sorry too, then. I wasn't sure how to word myself.

I'm talking about in the context that you called Buddhism escapism earlier. I was wondering how you would define escapism, and how that definition relates to what you think a Buddhist might do, to be demonstrating escapism.

The definition I embolded up there is most closely to how I would definine escapism and relate it to religion.
 
Is it true?

Has anyone done a survey or other study to determine whether the Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle is really the usual course of events when people have a great loss? Elizabeth Kübler-Ross preached a lot of "Woo" things, so I don't think that her standards of evidence were very high. Have there been proper scientific investigations that corroborate her findings?


When humans suffer a traumatic event there is generally an accepted coping mechanism cycle....

the Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle, lists the stages as below. Most are well understood, but for "bargaining" and "testing" i've added a brief description.
More details at http://changingminds.org/disciplines/change_management/kubler_ross/bargaining_stage.htm

1) Shock
2) Denial
3) Anger
4) Bargaining (seeking ways to avoid having the bad thing happen. Bargaining is thus a vain expression of hope that the bad news is reversible. Bargaining in illness includes seeking alternative therapies and experimental drugs.)
5) Depression
Testing (Even in the pit of depressive despair, reality eventually starts to bite and the person realizes that they cannot stay in that deep, dark hole forever. They thus start looking for realistic things that they can do. These may be taken on as 'experiments' to see if doing these things help the situation in any way)
6) Acceptance.
 
Has anyone done a survey or other study to determine whether the Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle is really the usual course of events when people have a great loss? Elizabeth Kübler-Ross preached a lot of "Woo" things, so I don't think that her standards of evidence were very high. Have there been proper scientific investigations that corroborate her findings?

I don't know, but I do know that it isn't considered a final answer. Thin kof the Kübler-Ross cycle as a list of the most commonly seen emotions and reactions people have towards death. Do not take it in order, nor take any aspect to be concretely a stage. It is still a very helpful outline for healthcare professionals, though. It gives us a way to prescribe hopeful ways to deal with problems we have with our patients. It also logically suggests that the healthcare professional, and others around the patient, should not take these cycles as personal attacks.
 
Has anyone done a survey or other study to determine whether the Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle is really the usual course of events when people have a great loss? Elizabeth Kübler-Ross preached a lot of "Woo" things, so I don't think that her standards of evidence were very high. Have there been proper scientific investigations that corroborate her findings?

it is of course rather simplistic....apparently the latest thinking on such matters is that it's much more ebb and flow,

John Bowlby recategorizes the process as

Shock and Numbness,
Yearning and Searching,
Disorganization and Despair, and
Reorganization

but it seems pretty similar to the Kubler cycle to me :)
 

Back
Top Bottom