Loose Change - Part IV

[Kent1]

One thing that kills me about compareing wt7 to a controlled demolition is the "squibs" when ever you see a controlled demo you hear the cutting charges going off, popping sounds that sound like firecracker's, then you see cutting charges on the exterior of the building, and finally during the collapse you see compressed air and stuff fly out the windows. WT-7 you hear nothing and see nothing until the building starts to fall then you see the same compression blowing out the windows. And the druthers yell see squips!!! Were all druthers standing under the buildings while bricks where falling?

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=6979955002470780153&q=landmarkhttp://video.google.nl/videoplay?


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1643313543353229958

Amd don't forget the nice clean pile it left, not touching the other nearby buildings.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10104

I think the "squibs" have been pinned
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_squibs.html
http://www.debunking911.com/overp.htm
When you get a higher resolution copy they don't exist.
http://www.knowordie.co.uk/WTC7.avi
Its just previous edge damage and windows breaking.
The lower resolution copy has poor artifacting. Also Jones screwed up when he said:
"The upper floors have not moved relative to one another yet, as one can verify from the videos."
http://www.911myths.com/html/squib_timing.html

Anyone can see this by just watching the video

 

[MRWiffen]

I was wondering...do we have any good info on the whole "ASTM E119 Steel" argument.

Doing a net search, I can find little wrt the "6 hours" that the Steel should have remained unhindered if it were of the ASTM E119 Standard.

What I do find is information that describes the ASTM E119 as a series of tests created in 1918 to measure the ability of BUILDING STRUCTURES to withstand fire and subsequent temperature. I can't find anything about how this test was applied to the Steel Beams by themselves, rather than as part of the building structure as a whole, and I can find no Temp curve with anything close to 6h on it. Most of them list temps over a 1-2 hour period...

As this statement is used alot by the CTs, I would appreciate some clarification.

Oh, and submersible, if the "take it up the ^&*&" comment was directed at me, I do not take it up the "^&*&" for anyone, let alone govt, and I am far from programmed...

Here's the current abstract from the ASTM site http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/REDLINE_PAGES/E119.htm?L+mystore+unbi8357

I'll check when I get to work if we have a copy of the full standard. If I can't interpret it I'll get the metalurgist at work to give me a hand.

 

[T.A.M.]

Greeat MrWhiffen. Between you and MrSkinny I might actually be able to understand the damn thing, and then compare that with what K Ryan said (that the steel should have kept its structural integrety for 6h).

Submersible:

Check out these links, if you are really interested in learning about the fall of the towers...and actually READ the reports, not skim...

Implosionworld Article on WTC Collapse

MIT Structural and Civil Engineers Article on WTC Collapse

ASCE Fellow Article on WTC Collapse

ASCE Position on WTC Collapse

MIT Civil Engineering Professor Article on WTC Collapse

Testimony of The LEad Civil Engineer Who Investigated the Collapses

There is a start...

 

[twinstead]

T.A.M. you realize all those links to universally accepted experts in the revelant fields are from members of the establishment. Obviously when looking for truth, the evil forked-tongue of the Man is to be scrupulously avoided, right?

 

[Sultanist]

Forgive me if this has already been posted (I haven't visited this forum for months now).
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

I laughed so hard it hurt when this was posted to Hells Kitchen (IIDB) this morning.
Do you happen to know if it's been posted to Loose Change? I sure would like to read their reaction to it.

 

[MarkyX]

Forgive me if this has already been posted (I haven't visited this forum for months now).
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

I laughed so hard it hurt when this was posted to Hells Kitchen (IIDB) this morning.
Do you happen to know if it's been posted to Loose Change? I sure would like to read their reaction to it.

Several times. Dylan is disappointed because he sent Maddox a few times to Loose Change. Other members of the movement think Maddox is part of the New World Order because pirates represent "Skull and Bones"

This is the best argument for abortion, ever. Nothing is going to beat these guys.

 

[WildCat]

Forgive me if this has already been posted (I haven't visited this forum for months now).
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

I laughed so hard it hurt when this was posted to Hells Kitchen (IIDB) this morning.
Do you happen to know if it's been posted to Loose Change? I sure would like to read their reaction to it.

It's been posted here and in LC. The LC thread was in the Skeptics section, which has been eliminated.

 

[Sultanist]

The LC thread was in the Skeptics section, which has been eliminated.

Why does that not surprise me. I tell you one thing, if that bunch ever gets a government in it's own image, the First Amendment will go out the window faster than you can say "pull it".

 

[twinstead]

Why does that not surprise me. I tell you one thing, if that bunch ever gets a government in it's own image, the First Amendment will go out the window faster than you can say "pull it".

Yea, I'm sure that the Russian common folk were quite surprised with what replaced the evil Czars after the revolution. Whoops.

I say, let's throw off the bondage of the evil Federal Government and replace it with some kind of Stalinesque utopia! Down with the Man! Power to the people!

 

[Dog Town]

Why does that not surprise me. I tell you one thing, if that bunch ever gets a government in it's own image, the First Amendment will go out the window faster than you can say "pull it".

The only way these kiddies get a Gov in their image, wil be when they all move back to that Island in Peter Pan! They are Lost Boys!
DT

 

[apathoid]

Why does that not surprise me. I tell you one thing, if that bunch ever gets a government in it's own image, the First Amendment will go out the window faster than you can say "pull it".

Irony is not a strong point of theirs.

 

[Dave_46]

Fire Resistance Testing

Folks, it's been fifteen years since i was involved, but I spent nearly twenty years carrying out the British Standard version of these tests. Essentially the test consists of subjecting an element of a building (loaded where necessary) to a standard temperature/time regime.

The temperature is given by:

T = 20 + 345 x log(base 10)(8t + 1)

T is temperature deg C
t is time in minutes
(It's been a few years, so I hope I remembered correctly)

The elements are usually only about 3 metres long, because that is the size of the test furnaces.

The failure criterion for loadbearing structures is its loadbearing capacity. This is usually gauged by measuring deflection, but I think it can also be maximum temperature for steel. (again from memory I think 550 C)

The test standard can be used for tests up to six hours duration, but the longest I ever did was four hours (on a non loadbearing partition).

The duration that a test specimen lasts before failure can NOT be taken as the time to failure in a real fire. Nobody can predict what the severity of a real fire will be. It is a comparitive test which is usually used for marketing purposes. e.g. A manufacturer of say a fire resisting door will have his doorset tested for 30min or 60min (or whatever is wanted) to enable them to sell their product in the marketplace.

I hope this is useful

Dave

ETA The reason that individual elements are tested separately is also due to restrictions in the test furnaces.

 

[T.A.M.]

Nice to see the LC boys and girls have there finger on the "pulse"...lol

seems they still believe there were employees of Odigo in the WTCs and that they all got out safe due to the instant message warning...lol

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10970

 

[T.A.M.]

Even more hillarious, they honestly think the "Jon Benet Ramsey" news is simply a smokescreen to keep attention off the "9/11 truth" and the middle east.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11080

 

[Sir Knight]

Loose Change - Fact or Fiction Why believe it was a Conspiracy?

Hello everyone, well this is my first post and I have already learned so many things. Like all the things you CANNOT do when you are NEW here. So I am having to retype this whole thing OVER for when you are NEW you cannot use other URLS not related to this site, so POOF my lengthy post was gone!

Let me tell you a little about myself before you write me off as a looney toon. I am 55 years old, an inventor, well educated, a writer, investigator, been in computers for over 30 years and I was issued the first patent issued on software. Now with that said I will get to WHY I came to this site and WHY I am posting here.

I viewed LOOSE CHANGE not just one but a couple of times now, and I was super impressed with how it was done. They didn't tell you want to believe, they just showed you the news clips, facts and testimony from those that were there and they asked the questions and let you come to the conclusions, which for the most part were foregone conclusions.

I never believed in the conspiracy being touted by the Government that it was foreigners doing it. See the government wanted us to believe in a conspiracy but the one they were selling didn't include them.

I am angry at many people because of the film which only confirmed what I suspected had gone on, but it did things in a more detailed and factual manner instead of just a gut feeling. But I am more angry with the NAY SAYERS on LOOSE CHANGE which I have found on this thread. I can't believe people can be so stupid with regarding simple straight forward facts. And they wonder how the government thought they could get away with this? Well we have less rights now than we had BEFORE 9/11, we are not living in a FREE society anymore But people like Luke T. is why the government thought they would get away with things.

Here is the quote: "And does this look like a 16 foot hole to anyone? That's what Loose Changes says is all that was created in the Pentagon by the attack." Well the picture posted by Luke shows a fallen portion of the Pentagon AFTER it had burned for a while and had collapsed long after the video taken by the news media.

post1493879

The video showed the smaller HOLE in the Pentagon right AFTER the missle hit. And what about the government saying the plane crashed in front of the Pentagon and skidded into it when there was NO evidence of that happening and this was all NEWS footage right after it happened. The hole shown by LOOSE CHANGE was NEWS FOOTAGE, how can you argue with that? It was NOT big enough to have been created by the airline which the Government said CRASHED INTO THE PENTAGON. Forgetting for a moment that someone else in the government said it was a MISSLE. LOL I saw the windows just beside the SMALL hole intact except from broken glass and I guarantee you that if a BIG AIRLINER had hit that building there would BE NO WINDOWS are all there. How can logical people believe the BS handed out by the government? But a lot do, and that is why they thought they could get away with it, and even if everyone believed in the REAL conspiracy what would they do about it? Oh maybe we could get our own government to do an investigation which they might release to the public in about 50 years from now.

I think everyone should review the movie several times and TAKE NOTES. Do research and THINK. I find it incredible that any person after looking at the simple facts could ever believe that the story being peddled by our government is even close to being the truth.

There is a lot more than what I have posted here I would love to say but I guess I have used up my 5 cents worth on this note.

Let me know what you think or feel, but do it AFTER really reviewing the movie, not by going on what other people have said or what you think you know.

Sir Knight

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

First off, welcome to the forums.

Hello everyone, well this is my first post and I have already learned so many things. Like all the things you CANNOT do when you are NEW here. So I am having to retype this whole thing OVER for when you are NEW you cannot use other URLS not related to this site, so POOF my lengthy post was gone!

You will be able to post URLs after you have 15 posts under your belt.

Let me tell you a little about myself before you write me off as a looney toon. I am 55 years old, an inventor, well educated, a writer, investigator, been in computers for over 30 years and I was issued the first patent issued on software.

For my own edification, what was that patent on, and for whom were you working at that time?

Now with that said I will get to WHY I came to this site and WHY I am posting here.

I viewed LOOSE CHANGE not just one but a couple of times now, and I was super impressed with how it was done. They didn't tell you want to believe, they just showed you the news clips, facts and testimony from those that were there and they asked the questions and let you come to the conclusions, which for the most part were foregone conclusions.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you; I found LC to be propaganda filled and making every effort to influence people.

I never believed in the conspiracy being touted by the Government that it was foreigners doing it. See the government wanted us to believe in a conspiracy but the one they were selling didn't include them.

I am angry at many people because of the film which only confirmed what I suspected had gone on, but it did things in a more detailed and factual manner instead of just a gut feeling. But I am more angry with the NAY SAYERS on LOOSE CHANGE which I have found on this thread.

Instead of being angry, perhaps you could provide a counter to our counter-arguments to LC's claims.

I can't believe people can be so stupid with regarding simple straight forward facts.

Please attack the argument, not the person (people).

And they wonder how the government thought they could get away with this? Well we have less rights now than we had BEFORE 9/11, we are not living in a FREE society anymore But people like Luke T. is why the government thought they would get away with things.

Post hoc, ergo promptor hoc. A government conspiracy is not the only way that civil liberties can be lost.

Here is the quote: "And does this look like a 16 foot hole to anyone? That's what Loose Changes says is all that was created in the Pentagon by the attack." Well the picture posted by Luke shows a fallen portion of the Pentagon AFTER it had burned for a while and had collapsed long after the video taken by the news media.

post1493879

The video showed the smaller HOLE in the Pentagon right AFTER the missle hit. And what about the government saying the plane crashed in front of the Pentagon and skidded into it when there was NO evidence of that happening and this was all NEWS footage right after it happened. The hole shown by LOOSE CHANGE was NEWS FOOTAGE, how can you argue with that? It was NOT big enough to have been created by the airline which the Government said CRASHED INTO THE PENTAGON. Forgetting for a moment that someone else in the government said it was a MISSLE. LOL I saw the windows just beside the SMALL hole intact except from broken glass and I guarantee you that if a BIG AIRLINER had hit that building there would BE NO WINDOWS are all there.

Please address the counter-arguments that have already been made against these claims, rather than restating these claims.

How can logical people believe the BS handed out by the government? But a lot do, and that is why they thought they could get away with it, and even if everyone believed in the REAL conspiracy what would they do about it? Oh maybe we could get our own government to do an investigation which they might release to the public in about 50 years from now.

I think everyone should review the movie several times and TAKE NOTES. Do research and THINK. I find it incredible that any person after looking at the simple facts could ever believe that the story being peddled by our government is even close to being the truth.

We've done much more than watch it and take notes. We've analyzed it. We've critiqued it. We've helped develop comprehensive debunks of it.

There is a lot more than what I have posted here I would love to say but I guess I have used up my 5 cents worth on this note.

Let me know what you think or feel, but do it AFTER really reviewing the movie, not by going on what other people have said or what you think you know.

Sir Knight

Have you even looked at any of the critiques/counter-arguments made against LC?

 

[chran]

I think everyone should review the movie several times and TAKE NOTES. Do research and THINK. I find it incredible that any person after looking at the simple facts could ever believe that the story being peddled by our government is even close to being the trutth.

Hello Sir Knight, and welcome to the forum.

Someone already did review the movie and take notes: http://tinyurl.com/jnfp8

That's a link to Gravy's Loose Change Viewer Guide. Read it and draw your conclusions from that.

 

[Hellbound]

They didn't tell you want to believe, they just showed you the news clips, facts and testimony from those that were there and they asked the questions and let you come to the conclusions, which for the most part were foregone conclusions.

No, they quote mined, clip mined, and data mined to present only the "facts" and statements and views that supported their preconcieved notion. So there wasn't anything about "letting you decide for yourself". If someone wants you to choose a flavor of ice cream, and all they show you 5 differnt types of vanilla, it's not likely you'll choose chocolate.

I am angry at many people because of the film which only confirmed what I suspected had gone on, but it did things in a more detailed and factual manner instead of just a gut feeling.

*choke*

But I am more angry with the NAY SAYERS on LOOSE CHANGE which I have found on this thread. I can't believe people can be so stupid with regarding simple straight forward facts.

About all Loose change and its creators can deal with are "simple facts". The real facts are a lot more complicated than a poorly written thriller, or a holywood action movie, or a murder mystery. Of course, most people do what you did, they see loose change, assume that's the entire story, and never look at the actual evidence that is available.

Well we have less rights now than we had BEFORE 9/11, we are not living in a FREE society anymore But people like Luke T. is why the government thought they would get away with things.

Less rights...can you be specific please? How are we no longer "free"?

And what about the government saying the plane crashed in front of the Pentagon and skidded into it when there was NO evidence of that happening and this was all NEWS footage right after it happened.

Source?

I saw the windows just beside the SMALL hole intact except from broken glass and I guarantee you that if a BIG AIRLINER had hit that building there would BE NO WINDOWS are all there.

Again, if you actually cared about reality or the "truth" and bothered to research things, you'd know that the renovated section that was hit had bomb-proof windows installed.

How can logical people believe the BS handed out by the government?

Because we research the evidence, instead of being spoon-fed a biased view by someones collection of incomplete and inaccurate sound bites.

I think everyone should review the movie several times and TAKE NOTES. Do research and THINK.

Most of us have. That's why we can conclusively say that the factual content of "Loose Change" is comparable to the factual content of "Weekend at Bernie's"

I find it incredible that any person after looking at the simple facts could ever believe that the story being peddled by our government is even close to being the truth.

And I constantly wonder how someone can accept whatever they are told by a film student with an agenda as gospel, and prefers a simple, spoon-fed list of "facts" instead of doing the actual work to find out the facts.

 

[Sir Knight]

Hello everyone, well this is my first post and I have already learned so many things. Like all the things you CANNOT do when you are NEW here. So I am having to retype this whole thing OVER for when you are NEW you cannot use other URLS not related to this site, so POOF my lengthy post was gone!

Let me tell you a little about myself before you write me off as a looney toon. I am 55 years old, an inventor, well educated, a writer, investigator, been in computers for over 30 years and I was issued the first patent issued on software. Now with that said I will get to WHY I came to this site and WHY I am posting here.

I viewed LOOSE CHANGE not just one but a couple of times now, and I was super impressed with how it was done. They didn't tell you want to believe, they just showed you the news clips, facts and testimony from those that were there and they asked the questions and let you come to the conclusions, which for the most part were foregone conclusions.

I never believed in the conspiracy being touted by the Government that it was foreigners doing it. See the government wanted us to believe in a conspiracy but the one they were selling didn't include them.

I am angry at many people because of the film which only confirmed what I suspected had gone on, but it did things in a more detailed and factual manner instead of just a gut feeling. But I am more angry with the NAY SAYERS on LOOSE CHANGE which I have found on this thread. I can't believe people can be so stupid with regarding simple straight forward facts. And they wonder how the government thought they could get away with this? Well we have less rights now than we had BEFORE 9/11, we are not living in a FREE society anymore But people like Luke T. is why the government thought they would get away with things.

Here is the quote: "And does this look like a 16 foot hole to anyone? That's what Loose Changes says is all that was created in the Pentagon by the attack." Well the picture posted by Luke shows a fallen portion of the Pentagon AFTER it had burned for a while and had collapsed long after the video taken by the news media.

post1493879

The video showed the smaller HOLE in the Pentagon right AFTER the missle hit. And what about the government saying the plane crashed in front of the Pentagon and skidded into it when there was NO evidence of that happening and this was all NEWS footage right after it happened. The hole shown by LOOSE CHANGE was NEWS FOOTAGE, how can you argue with that? It was NOT big enough to have been created by the airline which the Government said CRASHED INTO THE PENTAGON. Forgetting for a moment that someone else in the government said it was a MISSLE. LOL I saw the windows just beside the SMALL hole intact except from broken glass and I guarantee you that if a BIG AIRLINER had hit that building there would BE NO WINDOWS are all there. How can logical people believe the BS handed out by the government? But a lot do, and that is why they thought they could get away with it, and even if everyone believed in the REAL conspiracy what would they do about it? Oh maybe we could get our own government to do an investigation which they might release to the public in about 50 years from now.

I think everyone should review the movie several times and TAKE NOTES. Do research and THINK. I find it incredible that any person after looking at the simple facts could ever believe that the story being peddled by our government is even close to being the truth.

There is a lot more than what I have posted here I would love to say but I guess I have used up my 5 cents worth on this note.

Let me know what you think or feel, but do it AFTER really reviewing the movie, not by going on what other people have said or what you think you know.

Sir Knight

 

[gmanontario]

Hello everyone, well this is my first post and I have already learned so many things. Like all the things you CANNOT do when you are NEW here. So I am having to retype this whole thing OVER for when you are NEW you cannot use other URLS not related to this site, so POOF my lengthy post was gone!

Let me tell you a little about myself before you write me off as a looney toon. I am 55 years old, an inventor, well educated, a writer, investigator, been in computers for over 30 years and I was issued the first patent issued on software. Now with that said I will get to WHY I came to this site and WHY I am posting here.

I viewed LOOSE CHANGE not just one but a couple of times now, and I was super impressed with how it was done. They didn't tell you want to believe, they just showed you the news clips, facts and testimony from those that were there and they asked the questions and let you come to the conclusions, which for the most part were foregone conclusions.

I never believed in the conspiracy being touted by the Government that it was foreigners doing it. See the government wanted us to believe in a conspiracy but the one they were selling didn't include them.

I am angry at many people because of the film which only confirmed what I suspected had gone on, but it did things in a more detailed and factual manner instead of just a gut feeling. But I am more angry with the NAY SAYERS on LOOSE CHANGE which I have found on this thread. I can't believe people can be so stupid with regarding simple straight forward facts. And they wonder how the government thought they could get away with this? Well we have less rights now than we had BEFORE 9/11, we are not living in a FREE society anymore But people like Luke T. is why the government thought they would get away with things.

Here is the quote: "And does this look like a 16 foot hole to anyone? That's what Loose Changes says is all that was created in the Pentagon by the attack." Well the picture posted by Luke shows a fallen portion of the Pentagon AFTER it had burned for a while and had collapsed long after the video taken by the news media.

post1493879

The video showed the smaller HOLE in the Pentagon right AFTER the missle hit. And what about the government saying the plane crashed in front of the Pentagon and skidded into it when there was NO evidence of that happening and this was all NEWS footage right after it happened. The hole shown by LOOSE CHANGE was NEWS FOOTAGE, how can you argue with that? It was NOT big enough to have been created by the airline which the Government said CRASHED INTO THE PENTAGON. Forgetting for a moment that someone else in the government said it was a MISSLE. LOL I saw the windows just beside the SMALL hole intact except from broken glass and I guarantee you that if a BIG AIRLINER had hit that building there would BE NO WINDOWS are all there. How can logical people believe the BS handed out by the government? But a lot do, and that is why they thought they could get away with it, and even if everyone believed in the REAL conspiracy what would they do about it? Oh maybe we could get our own government to do an investigation which they might release to the public in about 50 years from now.

I think everyone should review the movie several times and TAKE NOTES. Do research and THINK. I find it incredible that any person after looking at the simple facts could ever believe that the story being peddled by our government is even close to being the truth.

There is a lot more than what I have posted here I would love to say but I guess I have used up my 5 cents worth on this note.

Let me know what you think or feel, but do it AFTER really reviewing the movie, not by going on what other people have said or what you think you know.

Sir Knight

<Lurk Mode OFF>
I for one being 52 years old have learned that even the best educated people on the planet can still be narrow-minded, judgemental looney tunes. Education does not equal critical thinking skills.

What makes you an expert on the pentagon hit? How big should the hole have been, and please show your numbers. No "commn sense" arguments please.

As far as the LC dreck goes, I couldn't stand having the taste of vomit in my mouth more than once. FYI most of the people here have seen the village idiots at work and have commented hundreds of times on all aspects of that waste of good beer-drinking time. See any post by Gravy and MarkyX, people who have actually DONE some research rather than accepting the move at face value.

Dylan et al are complete losers who have found a way to profit on the deaths of 3000+ people. A warning to you friend is to expect no quarter when discussing 9/11 here. Even the regulars get corrected if they are wrong. Statements like "I can't believe that people do/don't believe <insert a conclusion here>" will definitely not hold any water unless you have iron clad proof to back it up.

Back to you guys Gravy and MarkyX

<lurk mode ON>

eta: I bet you're a hero at the circle-jerk over at the LC forums...