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Loose Change - Part IV

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Nonsense. It is not evidence unless you can prove they specifically intended to hit that exact spot.

On the contrary, probability is evidence and often strong proof. I suppose that you reject every argument that is based on probability -- all of modern nuclear and particle physics research? Do you write off every strange thing as coincidence, no matter how unlikely? Or do you say at one point that it's unlikely to be coincidence and that an alternative explanation is more likely.

In this case, he hit the point of least damage, and he appear to aim for that and no other. (I may have been wrong about the nature of his circular dive. If he pulled out at 2000 feet above the ground, that's not nearly as bad.)

www DOT gwu DOT edu SLASH ~nsarchiv SLASH NSAEBB SLASH NSAEBB196 SLASH doc02 DOT pdf

He was aiming at a wall 24m high. Put it this way, let's look at the last 5 seconds of the flight, in which he would have covered about 1km of distance.

At 5 seconds (1000m) out his angle of error for a hit on the Pentagon was 1.375 degrees
At 4 seconds (800m) it was 1.719 degrees
At 3 seconds (600m) it was 2.292 degrees
At 2 seconds (400m) it was 3.438 degrees
At 1 second (200m) it was 6.880 degrees

As you can see, the margin of error increases significantly the closer he gets to the target. He had a commercial pilots license. To think someone who is commercial qualified cannot keep an aircraft straight and level is ridiculous.

Have you seen any of the quotes about how poor a pilot he was? If he had one, he shouldn't have. In any case, the document I "linked" to above shows how awful a time he had keeping the aircraft level when it was off autopilot. I think we can rule out his flying horizontally 30 feet above the ground without hitting the ground.

That's not a "version". That's a statement. You have to state HOW they did it. If I say "Al Qaeda did it" or "terrorists did it" both of these have less letters than "The government did it". Does that make them simplier?

Precisely my point. Simplicity of a theory may simply be incompleteness. The theory has to explain the facts. The official story doesn't explain many of the facts.

And herein lies your problem. The only people in government employ who are willing to sacrifice their lives for "the cause" are the most loyal of patriots. These are the sort of people who are dying in Afghanistan and Iraq. These are the people who died on the beaches of Normandy, in the jungles of Iwo Jima, and in the mud of the Western Front.

Did I say anywhere that that anyone in our government was knowingly dying for the conspiracy?

In any case, does it really insult those in Iraq to point out that they are participating in aggressive war, a fantasy of conquest of our neocon elite who never had to go to war themselves? Does it insult those who fought and sacrificed their lives on the German side of WWII to suggest that they were part of aggressive war, invading and conquering other countries? The answer either has to be no or yes for both of them.

You insult the sacrifice of these people when you suggest some of their number for sacrifice their lives in an effort to slaughter the citizens they have sworn to protect.

Again, I didn't claim that any of the participants sacrificed their own lives. They "sacrificed" other lives.

Anyone corrupt enough to murder their own citizens would not be loyal enough to give their life in the process.

Precisely. Something else happened.

I wrote earlier: "1) Al Qaeda paralyzed our air security."

Your response: "They did not."

I suppose I should have inserted something to indicate sarcasm in my statement. Or perhaps I should have made a serious statement: "Our air security was paralyzed." Of course, the official story doesn't give any kind of reasonable explanation or accounting for the paralysis of our air security during 9/11.

Quick question: What does the 9/11 Commission's Report say in Chapter 1 about the possibility of fighter jets from Andrews Air Force Base intercepting the approaching AA 77? (Not to mention any one of the bases near the path the plane flew.)

The answer to that question can be expressed in one word. (Explaining why Andrews failed to launch intercepters doesn't answer the question, what did the Report say?)

While this isn't necessarily true, it may surprise you to know Al Qaeda had a mole in the CIA for most of the 90's. They are a very sophisticated, intelligent, and well resourced enemy.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least. However, were those who sabotaged investigation the moles? Then how is it that they were promoted and rewarded? The officer who sabotaged Colleen Rowley's case was Marion Bowman, who was later given an FBI reward for exceptional performance.

My earlier quote: "3) Al Qaeda persuaded the Bush Administration to staunchly oppose investigation of the attacks, to stall and stonewall when investigation occured, to grossly underfund the 9/11 Commission, etc."

Here you're full of nonsense. The 9/11 commission was not an investigation into the attacks. These were (and still are) carried out by specialist agencies - for example the FBI is in charge of the criminal investigation while FEMA investigated the Ground Zero site and NIST assessed the actual mechanics of the building collapses.

It wasn't nonsense, it was sarcasm. The Bush Administration committed every sin in my earlier quote. This fact doesn't fit the official story. And you are wrong in stating that the 9/11 commision was not an investigation into the attacks.

Our aim has not been to assign individual blame. Our aim has been to
provide the fullest possible account of the events surrounding 9/11 and to
identify lessons learned.

This was a quote from the prefix, page xvi. That includes investigating what happened. Have you forgotten all the complaints about the Bush Administration not producing documents, or stalling before producing them? When was the 9/11 Commission formed? How much money were they allocated? How do those answers compare with the Commissions investigating the two space shuttle disasters.

Does anyone recall Dick Cheney threatening certain senators with treason accusation in calling for investigation of 9/11?

The 9/11 commission was specifically tasked with providing answers to the families of victims regarding how the attack happened and what the government did in response.

That includes finding out what actually happened. That is, investigating. They might use the results of FEMA and NIST, but also check that they are reasonable and consistant with the facts.

Shortly after 9/11, there was at least one suggestion of a billion-dollar independent investigation. Ultimately, it only started 14 months after, with an initial allocation of 3 million dollars. (Total amount 15 million dollars.)

It is understandable (though unacceptable) that the government were reluctant to allow such a study.

Thanks for conceding that the government's reluctance was unacceptable. But it was only understandable if 9/11 was an inside job. The Bush Administration was operating in coverup mode ever since 9/11 occured.

In fact, if someone were to ask me what kind of evidence would convince me of the official story, I would demand the following as a bare minimum:

1) Evidence that the 9/11 Commission was formed at most a month after 9/11, and initially allocated at least one hundred million dollars.

2) Evidence that NORAD got fighter jets up near the hijacked planes within twenty minutes of the first sign of something going wrong for each plane. And after the first plane hit the North Tower, the fighter jets did everything possible short of shooting down the hijacked planes, to prevent them from hitting their targets. (Notice that I didn't require actual shooting down. I understand a strong reluctance.)

My quote: "Religious zealots who enjoyed lap-dancing and drinking and other non-Islamic activities. Religious zealots who visited and participated in Las Vegas."

Your answer: "Yes."

There's a clue there. Were they really suicidal religious zealots?

Indeed? So the people that were killed there... they were all construction workers were they?

No, just a majority of the victims there were construction workers.

7 Lieutenant Colonels
5 Majors
1 Sergeant First Class
2 Sergeant Majors
1 Lieutenant General
3 Captains
1 Sergeant
1 Staff Sergeant
1 Specialist
4 Lieutenants
5 Commanders
5 Lieutenant Commanders

You may have noticed that your numbers don't add up to over 100. Many more victims were killed. The most I will concede is that the construction was nearly complete and they began moving people in. Fewer than 1000 persons were there, as oppose to many thousands in the other wings.
 
www DOT gwu DOT edu SLASH ~nsarchiv SLASH NSAEBB SLASH NSAEBB196 SLASH doc02 DOT pdf

Hey JohnM307 - just a suggestion to make your posted URLS more readible (and more easily clickable) until you have your requisite 15 posts. You don't have to replace all the dots and slashes with words - you can just take the "http://www." at the beginning and leave the rest - that'll get it past the filter.

Thanks!

-Joytown
 
No matter WHERE they hit, John, they would "happen to hit there". Doesn't that tell you something ?

You're not thinking. You're confusing "any possible" position with one position independently chosen. Sure, a flip of ten coins will produce one one-in-1024 result. But if I compare that with something independently chosen, say HTTHTHHTTH, then if it happens to match, there is something suspicious.

In this case, the spot hit by the aircraft just happened to be the spot that would do by far the least damage. Not only that, they appeared to aim for it and no place else.

Pointing to a target with a plane without actually having to land it isn't particularily difficult. Or so actual airline pilots say.

Easy or difficult for someone who had a lot of trouble maintaining a steady altitude without the autopilot engaged? Easy or difficult for someone who was described as a poor pilot?

www DOT gwu DOT edu SLASH ~nsarchiv SLASH NSAEBB SLASH NSAEBB196 SLASH doc02 DOT pdf

3) It's obvious that terrorists would not attack to do minimal damage.

It is obvious. However, you're forgetting some very important elements; mainly that they might have wanted to inflict symbolic damage in this instance.

Consider the symbolic damage they inflicted on the World Trade Center.

Okay, if the mode of attack were different -- not horizontal, 30 feet above the ground -- I might accept that they just happened to hit the point of least damage by luck. But that spot was targeted specifically.

I can see reasoning isn't your forté. "In fewer words" doesn't mean simpler. In order to pull this off and keep it secret, the government would have had to expend an incredible amount of ressources, while Al-Qaeda would simply have to do what they usually do.

How do you know that the government would have to expend an incredible amount of resources? Why couldn't the government do what Al Qaeda was supposed to have done? What could Al Qaeda do that the government couldn't do?

An assertion that's easy to believe if you have "Superman: the movie" mentality; namely that Lex Luthor could have done all this with only two idiots for henchmen.

That's close to the official story mentality.

The word you're looking for is "circumvent".

No, the word is paralyze. We had an attack, and our "defense" forces played dead until the Pentagon was hit.

I find the explanation that no one knew exactly what would happen far more believable.

That doesn't explain conduct like FBI officer Marion Bowman rewriting a memo by FBI agent Coleen Rowley to sabotage a warrant request to search a suspect's computer. It also doesn't explain the suspicious story of Al Qaeda expert John O'Neill, marginalized and then driven out of the FBI. It doesn't explain the repeated persistant disregard of numerous warnings the summer before 9/11.

They are allowed to do this to reach their objectives. Don't you know ANYTHING ?

Do you have that kind of understanding about Islam? Do you really think that Atta's womanizing really was anything other than having fun and enjoying life? Do you think that was all part of the plot?

If so, what evidence do you have for that?

Hey, I got an even simpler one: "Satan did it". I mean, I'm he's supernatural, so all he has to do is clap his hands and it just happens, right ?

My whole point was that simplicity of a theory is no indication of how accurate the theory is. Thank's for echoing my point. I could make such examples myself.

Anything bearing Killtown's name is sure to be seen as suspect here.

I think that you can check or refute his claims independent of whether he is suspect. Can you refute his "Pentalawn" page?

So, when someone wins the lottery, and there was 13.999.999 chances out of 14.000.000 that he didn't win, you call that suspect ? Wow. You really know your statistics.

You're not thinking. If that guy is indepentently guessed, then there is reason for suspicion. You seem to be confused about any result versus one particular result. Or you are confusing aiming at a bull's-eye and hitting, versus drawing a bull's-eye around a bullet hole.
 
False dichotomy.

Not a false dicotomy. Or only a false dicotomy in the sence that Occam's Razor involves a false dicotomy.

You know, I spent a good deal of time on my previous post to you pointing out your erroneous analytical processes. At least have the grace to aknowledge it.

You haven't shown anything erroneous that I've done. You've only missunderstood and refused to think.
 
Hey JohnM307 - just a suggestion to make your posted URLS more readible (and more easily clickable) until you have your requisite 15 posts. You don't have to replace all the dots and slashes with words - you can just take the [deleted] at the beginning and leave the rest - that'll get it past the filter.

Thanks!

-Joytown

Thanks for the suggestion. (And I had to the http part then as well.)
 
You're not thinking. You're confusing "any possible" position with one position independently chosen.
So far you have done nothing to support this assertion. You have merely reiterated your interpretation of the events.

Sure, a flip of ten coins will produce one one-in-1024 result. But if I compare that with something independently chosen, say HTTHTHHTTH, then if it happens to match, there is something suspicious.
Not without corroborating evidence it isn't.

In this case, the spot hit by the aircraft just happened to be the spot that would do by far the least damage. Not only that, they appeared to aim for it and no place else.
Evidence?

Easy or difficult for someone who had a lot of trouble maintaining a steady altitude without the autopilot engaged? Easy or difficult for someone who was described as a poor pilot?

www DOT gwu DOT edu SLASH ~nsarchiv SLASH NSAEBB SLASH NSAEBB196 SLASH doc02 DOT pdf
If he had a license then he had to at least be a passable pilot.

Consider the symbolic damage they inflicted on the World Trade Center.

Okay, if the mode of attack were different -- not horizontal, 30 feet above the ground -- I might accept that they just happened to hit the point of least damage by luck. But that spot was targeted specifically.
Prove it.

How do you know that the government would have to expend an incredible amount of resources? Why couldn't the government do what Al Qaeda was supposed to have done? What could Al Qaeda do that the government couldn't do?
These questions have already been answered. You have chosen to ignore those answers.

That's close to the official story mentality.



No, the word is paralyze. We had an attack, and our "defense" forces played dead until the Pentagon was hit.
Why are disregarding the evidence of scrambled jets?

That doesn't explain conduct like FBI officer Marion Bowman rewriting a memo by FBI agent Coleen Rowley to sabotage a warrant request to search a suspect's computer.
Link to evidence?

It also doesn't explain the suspicious story of Al Qaeda expert John O'Neill, marginalized and then driven out of the FBI. It doesn't explain the repeated persistant disregard of numerous warnings the summer before 9/11.
No, but Hanlon's Razor does.
 
Not a false dicotomy. Or only a false dicotomy in the sence that Occam's Razor involves a false dicotomy.



You haven't shown anything erroneous that I've done. You've only missunderstood and refused to think.

You appear to have a mistaken understanding of both false dichotomy, and Occam's razor. Occam's razor states, that given only two possible explanations, go for the least complex. This is different from your statement
...Thanks for conceding that the government's reluctance was unacceptable. But it was only understandable if 9/11 was an inside job...
which is a false dichotomy because you are taking a situation with N number of possibilities and forcing it into an either/or choice without showing why it can be constrained to that given either/or choice.
 
Heres an easy question for those who have been at this a while: Why the hell is the movie titled "Loose Change"? I have wondered this a few times but never felt like expending the hassle of looking, and the 2 seconds on google I spent before this didn't answer it. So I figured I would throw it to you guys.
 
Heres an easy question for those who have been at this a while: Why the hell is the movie titled "Loose Change"? I have wondered this a few times but never felt like expending the hassle of looking, and the 2 seconds on google I spent before this didn't answer it. So I figured I would throw it to you guys.

Is it because it's a collection of small overlooked "facts" which when collected together the authors(film makers) believe add up to something substantial?
I'm just asking questions.
 
Is it because it's a collection of small overlooked "facts" which when collected together the authors(film makers) believe add up to something substantial?
I'm just asking questions.

Yeah, you're probably right. I thought the name came from the budget they were working under.
 
Heres an easy question for those who have been at this a while: Why the hell is the movie titled "Loose Change"? I have wondered this a few times but never felt like expending the hassle of looking, and the 2 seconds on google I spent before this didn't answer it. So I figured I would throw it to you guys.



Because thats what they made it with. Can't ya tell?
edit Sorry better answer above.
 
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There is a heavy handed mod over at ATS, that loves to throw his, I started this board BS. Arguements with him are less than equal ground!
Does anyone here mind if I chanlenge him to ply his trade here?
I am not as eloquent as you folks! I would not be the one to battle with his ignorance. Plus We go in the Studio next week. I will not have the time.
I would love to see you kats put It in it's place. What say yee?
It's name is SkeptikOverlord!
 
Well I'm new here and also not too great at formal debating, but I would love to see what Mr Gumboot or Arkan Wolfshade would make of SkeptiK Overlord.(mincemeat I suspect).
 
Well I'm new here and also not too great at formal debating, but I would love to see what Mr Gumboot or Arkan Wolfshade would make of SkeptiK Overlord.(mincemeat I suspect).

That would be on their off days!

I would love to see it. Much a coward I believe , he is!
 
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