Is there a "good" side to the Muslim religion?

[SteveGrenard]

Steve wrote:

How recently? Examples after Hitler would be appreciated. I agree with you but I can't recall any religious upheavals in America that call for the decapitation of anyone who disagrees.

My question asked for recent examples of religiously required decapitation in America. Not killings anywhere in the world. Three things ignored.

Phelps may be anti-gay but he has not decapitated anyone as far as I know and otherwise co-exists with the secular authorities.

Muslims call for koranic rule and law. They call for the killing of anyone who does not convert to their rule. They use terrorism in the name of their god allah to accomplish that. They wage jihad on masses of people like the 2 million dead Sudanese.

 

[CFLarsen]

My question asked for recent examples of religiously required decapitation in America. Not killings anywhere in the world. Three things ignored.

If you are going to restrict it to that, then your generalization of Muslims becomes even more ridiculous, unfair and bigoted.

Who, exactly, calls for decapitation of their enemies?

Yes, be precise. Name the groups and focus on them.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Koranic Law or Shari'a or religious courts call for decapitations for marrying without your father's permission. Saudi Arabian authorities publicly executed a Saudi Princess by decapitation on TV in 1978 for this offense. They also executed the groom by gunshot to the head.

Devout muslims executed Danny Perl, a non-combatant journalist in Iraq by beheading him publicly (via video).

The decapitation atrocity occurs wherever devout muslims wage jihad for the purpose of converting non-muslims into muslims where the non-muslims refuse to convert. This same body of muslim lore also calls for the amputation of relevant body parts as punishments as well. Devout muslims also punish women who allow their skin to show by burying them up to their necks and publicly stoning their exposed head. The religious police (what Christians in the west have "religious" police) in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, Iran and elsewhere, armed with batons and guns, publicly flog muslims who miss even one of their five daily calls to prayer without a medical certtificate.

This religion, as a whole, is anachronistic and barbaric. I have said this before and I say it again.


Pointing to whacko ministers who are anti-gay or historical violations such as the KKK or IRA, both of which have been taken down by secular authorities, as being anything nearly as similar to the entire muslim brotherhood and their strict adherence to koranic law. The KKK was
opposed to blacks and jews on racial discrimination. The IRA was waging a political battle to throw the British out of northern Ireland.


You will never find a secular authority in a muslim country that will punish muslims for obeying koranic law because there is no secular authority. Muslims wage jihad on the west because they not only want to impose their religion on non-muslims but their koranic law or shari'a on them as well.

Lapsed muslims are no longer muslims and moderate muslims who publicly stand up and fight along side non-muslims because they object to the agenda of the muslim extremists are a great rarity, hence the generalization.

Claus, you have not been able to provide me with the %s to help me with my muddlement. When are you going to do that?

 

[brodski]

IRA, both of which have been taken down by secular authorities

what makes yo think that the IRA has been "taken down" the fact that they have moved from political goals to purely financial goals doesn't mean that they have been "taken down" at all. "loyalist" groups are also still active, as the recent sectarian murder of a young Catholic testified to.

 

[SteveGrenard]

The IRA pales in comparison to the activities of muslims. They are not interested in converting protestants ito catholicism, there's is a political struggle based on prejudice received at the hands of some protestants and the British occupation of northern island. They indiscriminately set off bombs in London and killed people in Northern Island primarily because they thought they could get Britain to quit the country. They are criminals pure and simple and some of the most violent are dead or in jail. If they were muslims in a muslim nation they would be enjoying the fruits of their jihad: virgins, large abodes and thousands of servants to wait on them.

Sudan provides another example of the foreign desks of America’s national press turning a blind eye to the story happening on their own beats. Islamic fundamentalists declared Sudan an Islamic state in 1983, and government attempts to apply Shari’a (Islamic law) to its sizable non-Muslim population was one of the key factors leading to civil war. The militant Islamic government’s tactics in its religious war in the southern part of the country have resulted in the deaths of about 1.5 million people and the displacement of more than three million. To eradicate the non-Muslim population, Sudanese agents have burned and looted villages, enslaved women and children, forcibly converted non-Muslim boys before using them as shock troops in battle, relocated entire villages into concentration camps called "peace villages," and withheld international food aid to starving non-Muslim communities until they convert. The U.S. State Department, the United Nations Human Rights Commission, and numerous independent human rights investigators have all documented that Christians and animists are victims of an ongoing brutal campaign of forced Islamization sponsored by the Khartoum government.

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9711/articles/report.html

 

[Darat]

The IRA pales in comparison to the activities of muslims.

Not in the UK it doesn't; have a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_IRA_Actions and that is just the action of the Provisional IRA - there were many more terrorist groups operating throughout the troubles and still do today.

They are not interested in converting protestants ito catholicism,

True - both lots of Christians seem to prefer to kill one another because they say "amen" at different times during Church services: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1465424.stm

there's is a political struggle based on prejudice received at the hands of some protestants and the British occupation of northern island.

"Political struggle" - no it is terrorism of a scale you don't seem to be aware of. Does it sit well with you by the way that the USA helped fund a lot of the people who have been trying to kill me and my family for decades? That the USA supported groups known to supply funds and aid to "paramilitaries" i.e. terrorists?

They indiscriminately set off bombs in London and killed people in Northern Island primarily because they thought they could get Britain to quit the country. They are criminals pure and simple and some of the most violent are dead or in jail. If they were muslims in a muslim nation they would be enjoying the fruits of their jihad: virgins, large abodes and thousands of servants to wait on them.

You do know that many of the IRA commanders are very wealthy - enjoying the proceeds of their decades of terrorising people, that some terrorists are now Members of the UK Parliament? I would say the evidence is that being a Christian terrorist is a surefire way to great material rewards.

 

[SteveGrenard]

That's right. They are criminals/ terrorists. Most remain in it for personal gain. They cannot be compared with muslim jihadis. There are criminal gangs throughout the world. They are tracked down and prosecuted by secular law.

Tell me the IRA wants to blow up 10 jumbo jets as they cross the Atlantic ... let's see, that's about 3000 innocent souls. Tell me what the reward in heaven is for IRA martyrs who die for their political struggle? Most of them are cowardly bastards anyway so it's not gonna happen.

Tell me the Catholic Church supports the IRA? Tell me Canon law provides a religious and legal basis for their actions.

Thank you.

A federal law enforcement official in Washington said that at least one martyrdom tape was found during raids across England on Thursday. Such a tape, as well as the scheme to strike a range of targets at roughly the same time, is an earmark of al-Qaida.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14297890/?GT1=8404

 

[Darat]

That's right. They are criminals/ terrorists. Most remain in it for personal gain. They cannot be compared with muslim jihadis.

Steve you must have forgot what you just posted "...If they were muslims in a muslim nation they would be enjoying the fruits of their jihad: virgins, large abodes and thousands of servants to wait on them...."

It was you that made the claim that Muslim terrorists enjoy the material good life in Muslim nations.

I also see you did not comment on the scale of the PIRA attacks over the decades - did their relentless violence month in month out, year in year out surprise you - did you think it was an occasional "little" bit of trouble but in the end just some high spirits. They were relentless Christian terrorists. A personal hero of mine died just a little while ago George Styles GC - his team defused/dismantled over 1000 explosive devices and destroyed over a 1000 other devices in just one year.

There are criminal gangs throughout the world. They are tracked down and prosecuted by secular law.

The PIRA and the others were not criminal gangs they were bloodthirsty, callous cold hearted murdering Christian terrorists.

Tell me the IRA wants to blow up 10 jumbo jets as they cross the Atlantic ..
let's see, that's about 3000 innocent souls.

Planes are somehow special? What about destroying city centres, placing bombs outside shops in the main shopping street of a town on a Saturday morning? Times do change and terrorists targets change, some is in fact because we've improved security and certain types of attacks are less likely to succeed so the terrorists change tactics. In the end it is all the same - using violence to terrorise people.

Tell me what the reward in heaven is for IRA martyrs who die for their political struggle? Most of them are cowardly bastards anyway so it's not gonna happen.

Their reward is the same as for any devote Christian - eternal life in heaven - that is why the hunger strike "martyrs" had their last rites given by the Catholic priests. Why some priests would bless the weapons they used and so on.

Tell me the Catholic Church supports the IRA? Tell me Canon law provides a religious and legal basis for their actions.

Thank you.

Well since there is no equivalent of the Catholic Church in Islam the comparison can't be made. However Catholic and Protestant priests were known to support the terrorist groups, many of them did publicly support the actions of such groups. Which is the same as the Imans who support Islamic terrorists.

 

[CFLarsen]

Koranic Law or Shari'a or religious courts call for decapitations for marrying without your father's permission.

Biblical law calls for much harsher punishments for far smaller "crimes".

Saudi Arabian authorities publicly executed a Saudi Princess by decapitation on TV in 1978 for this offense. They also executed the groom by gunshot to the head.

Sheesh, you got anything more recent?

Devout muslims executed Danny Perl, a non-combatant journalist in Iraq by beheading him publicly (via video).

Wrong. Daniel Perl was executed by having his throat slit. His head was later severed. His death was not filmed. You are thinking about Nick Berg.

Once again, you get it wrong. And wrong. And wrong again.

Pointing to whacko ministers who are anti-gay or historical violations such as the KKK or IRA, both of which have been taken down by secular authorities, as being anything nearly as similar to the entire muslim brotherhood and their strict adherence to koranic law. The KKK was
opposed to blacks and jews on racial discrimination. The IRA was waging a political battle to throw the British out of northern Ireland.

I see others have taken you to task for this stunning ignorance.

Claus, you have not been able to provide me with the %s to help me with my muddlement. When are you going to do that?

You can't even get the simplest things right, and you ask why you are muddled?

 

[rachaella]

Tell me the Catholic Church supports the IRA? Tell me Canon law provides a religious and legal basis for their actions.

Doing a very quick search on "Imams condemn terrorism" I found numerous examples of groups of Muslim religious leaders condemning violence committed by muslim extremists.

Here is a long list of statements from the University of North Carolina website: http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

 

[SteveGrenard]

Doing a very quick search on "Imams condemn terrorism" I found numerous examples of groups of Muslim religious leaders condemning violence committed by muslim extremists.

Here is a long list of statements from the University of North Carolina website: http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

It's too bad that this handful of condemers have had no effect on the pan-global jihad being perpetrated by devout moslem extremists.

 

[CFLarsen]

It's too bad that this handful of condemers have had no effect on the pan-global jihad being perpetrated by devout moslem extremists.

So, these groups of Muslim religious leaders are not real Muslims?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Steve you must have forgot what you just posted "...If they were muslims in a muslim nation they would be enjoying the fruits of their jihad: virgins, large abodes and thousands of servants to wait on them...."

It was you that made the claim that Muslim terrorists enjoy the material good life in Muslim nations.

er, when they are dead. Martyr’s reward. Alive, you are not a martyr. Nation of residence has nothing to do with it.

I also see you did not comment on the scale of the PIRA attacks over the decades - did their relentless violence month in month out, year in year out surprise you - did you think it was an occasional "little" bit of trouble but in the end just some high spirits. They were relentless Christian terrorists. A personal hero of mine died just a little while ago George Styles GC - his team defused/dismantled over 1000 explosive devices and destroyed over a 1000 other devices in just one year.

The attacks lodged by PIRA were political. The Provisional IRA and now its offshoot the CIRA with only 150 members were not operating under a biblical or koranic imperative. PIRA decommissioned its arms by September 2005. But comparing them to the muslim jihadists is apples and oranges. Why are we doing this? Start a new thread on PIRA and CIRA.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :

"There are criminal gangs throughout the world. They are tracked down and prosecuted by secular law."

The PIRA and the others were not criminal gangs they were bloodthirsty, callous cold hearted murdering Christian terrorists.

Not generic Christians, but specifically Catholics. Just because local priests backed them and they happened to be Catholics does not mean that central Catholic authorities defend their actions based on anything which can be found in the bible. Whereas the call for jihad, the conversion of infidels is well established in the Koran and shari’a and the penalty is death for those failing to convert or for those leaving the faith.


Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :

"Tell me the IRA wants to blow up 10 jumbo jets as they cross the Atlantic ..
let's see, that's about 3000 innocent souls."

Planes are somehow special? What about destroying city centres, placing bombs outside shops in the main shopping street of a town on a Saturday morning? Times do change and terrorists targets change, some is in fact because we've improved security and certain types of attacks are less likely to succeed so the terrorists change tactics. In the end it is all the same - using violence to terrorise people.

PIRA is the militant branch of a political organization. Muslims are representing their faith. Muslims are blowing up airplanes in the name of jihad as called for in kornic scriptures that have been presented previously here and available on the web. PIRA when it was operating had no biblical imperative.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :

"Tell me what the reward in heaven is for IRA martyrs who die for their political struggle? Most of them are cowardly bastards anyway so it's not gonna happen."

Their reward is the same as for any devote Christian - eternal life in heaven - that is why the hunger strike "martyrs" had their last rites given by the Catholic priests. Why some priests would bless the weapons they used and so on.

I beg to differ with you. Muslims who kill believe they are rewarded eternal life in heaven with their virgins, servants and houses. Catholics who kill believe they committed a mortal sin. They are not absolved. The acts of a handful of individual rogue priests is meaningless. There are more priests who are pedophiles than support the IRA and they are not being rewarded in heaven either. Being a priest confers no special privilege. There are priests who are drunks, drug addicts, thieves, gay, pedophiles or blessers of PIRA weapons. They have the same weaknesses as any man and commit the same crimes.


Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :

"Tell me the Catholic Church supports the IRA? Tell me Canon law provides a religious and legal basis for their actions. "

Well since there is no equivalent of the Catholic Church in Islam the comparison can't be made. However Catholic and Protestant priests were known to support the terrorist groups, many of them did publicly support the actions of such groups. Which is the same as the Imans who support Islamic terrorists.

I didn’t ask that. I asked if the Church condones the IRA? Central authorities in Islam apparently do
support and condone jihad. Again, the priests or ministers who support the PIRA terrorists with their political agendas are acting outside their church and are no better than the criminals they support. Clergy involved in secular politics will always cause problems. That’s why in the US the founders separated church and state.

 

[SteveGrenard]

So, these groups of Muslim religious leaders are not real Muslims?

What do you think? What's a "real" moslem? Why hasn't their condemnation of jihad had any effect on millions of jihadists? Why have 1.5 to 2 million Sudanese died at the hands of moslem militias rather than to submit to Shari'a and convert to Islam?

 

[Darat]

...snip...

The attacks lodged by PIRA were political.

What do you man "lodged"? They attacked people and property to cause terror their attacks where terrorist attacks in exactly the same way the attacks on 9/11 were terrorist attacks. If you wish to describe them as "political" then the attacks by Al Queda are also political...

PIRA decommissioned its arms by September 2005. But comparing them to the muslim jihadists is apples and oranges. Why are we doing this? Start a new thread on PIRA and CIRA. [/FONT][/SIZE]

Well I was responding to your misunderstanding and lack of knowledge regarding the IRA and related groups and the level of threat they represented (and to a lesser degree still do).

...snip...

Not generic Christians, but specifically Catholics.

Again you are mistaken - Protestant and Catholics both had terrorist groups (and still do).

Just because local priests backed them and they happened to be Catholics does not mean that central Catholic authorities defend their actions based on anything which can be found in the bible.

And I never said any "central Catholic authorities" did - however since there isn't a comparative Islamic "central authority" to compare Islam with all we can do is compare the teachers and holders of the faith in the communities they come from and as I said some Catholic and Protestant priests supported the terrorists. They gave them blessings, they gave them religious comfort and so on. And Christians have always managed to find support for their actions from their teachings.

Whereas the call for jihad, the conversion of infidels is well established in the Koran and shari’a and the penalty is death for those failing to convert or for those leaving the faith.

According to some Muslims yes according to many more it's not.

PIRA is the militant branch of a political organization.

Not according to Sinn Fein it isn't - they've always claimed they are quite separate from the Provisional IRA.

Muslims are representing their faith. Muslims are blowing up airplanes in the name of jihad as called for in kornic scriptures that have been presented previously here and available on the web. PIRA when it was operating had no biblical imperative.

So all that about USA occupying Iraq, Afghanistan and to go back to some old chestnuts USA forces in Saudi Arabia is....

I beg to differ with you. Muslims who kill believe they are rewarded eternal life in heaven with their virgins, servants and houses.

Many Muslim scholars and Imams totally disagree with this interpretation.

Catholics who kill believe they committed a mortal sin. They are not absolved.

Again you are wrong - if the Catholic has last rites and sincerely repents of their sins they will go to heaven even if they killed a million people

The acts of a handful of individual rogue priests is meaningless.

Yet the acts of individual rogue Imams are not meaningless?

There are more priests who are pedophiles than support the IRA and they are not being rewarded in heaven either. Being a priest confers no special privilege.

Again you are wrong in the Catholic faith being a priest confers a lot of "privilege".

There are priests who are drunks, drug addicts, thieves, gay, pedophiles or blessers of PIRA weapons. They have the same weaknesses as any man and commit the same crimes.

And?

I didn’t ask that. I asked if the Church condones the IRA? Central authorities in Islam apparently do...

There isn't a comparative "central authority" in Islam - it is one of the differences between Islam and Christianity.

...snip.... Again, the priests or ministers who support the PIRA terrorists with their political agendas are acting outside their church and are no better than the criminals they support.

Why do you keep referring to the Provos as "criminals" - they are terrorists and likewise any Imam that supports or condones terrorism is no better then the terrorists they support.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I am sorry Darat, get your facts straight. PIRA is specifically Catholic.

 

[SteveGrenard]

According to some Muslims yes according to many more it's not.

Got a breakdown? How many millions or hundreds of millions out of the 1.5 billion muslins in the world?

 

[Darat]

I am sorry Darat, get your facts straight. PIRA is specifically Catholic.

I never said it wasn't?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Why do you keep referring to the Provos as "criminals" - they are terrorists and likewise any Imam that supports or condones terrorism is no better then the terrorists they support.

Are you claiming that terrorism is not a crime?

 

[Darat]

Got a breakdown? How many millions or hundreds of millions out of the 1.5 billion muslins in the world?

No idea.