Afghani Eject Computer Experts

[TragicMonkey]

There are missionary groups that pretend to be humanitarian organizations, but use that as a cover for attempted conversions. I went to college with a guy who later went to Egypt as a crypto-missionary. He was thrilled that he'd be pretending to dig wells, or whatever, while actually "spreading the word of Jesus's love". Nobody's heard from or of him in about six years. I wouldn't make a large bet on his safety.

Of course, knowing that doofus, he probably mistook Copts for Muslims and spent the whole of his time there attempting to convert Christians to Christianity without realizing it.

 

[bjb]

Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/26/afghan.convert/

But apopasty is listed as a capital offense in the Christian bible:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
But I'm pretty sure this is a leftover from the Hebrew beliefs so I don't believe that Christians (followers of the teachings of Christ) ever actually did this.

 

[SteveGrenard]

So? Does this mean modern society needs to follow 2000 year old recommendations? The fact that a 1400 year old religion still does so isthe problem (Islam). Today Jews (sic: hebrews) or Christians do not kill people for changing religion.

 

[Elind]

I'll side with the Afghani's on this one - religion has screwed up their lives long enough, and there is no reason to believe that Christianity would be any better.

How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying.

 

[Lonewulf]

Except that the freedom of religion in America came from a time when America was of predominately one religion (Christianity). In fact, many secular countries today come from countries that were highly Christian (a number of European nations come to mind). To me this shows that Christianity had the seeds within it to plant a world where freedom and tolerance are not idle concepts.

So it has nothing to do with shifting views of society? It's all based on "our religion is holier than yours"?

To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions.

Riiiiiiiight... so Christian countries have always been "more tolerant" of other religions? Does this count Wicca? Or the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition?

Or the treatment of the Catholic immigrants by the Protestants? The KKK formed entirely to attack the Catholics that were seen as encroaching on the way of life of the Protestants. And that was fairly recent.

Society changed, not the religion. Society changed the people that followed the religion.

Thus, my comment that Christianity is better than Islam - because in some Islamic countries you'll be killed for converting.

You would've been killed for converting in the past! What do you think the Spanish Inquisition was about in the first place? And in many "Christian" countries, they aren't exactly tolerant... see the "Time of Troubles", or the people abandoned for not converting to Christianity left to die in Indonesia.

How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying.

Dunno about suicide bombers, but what about bombers that killed police officers and doctors in abortion clinics?

Quite frankly, I don't blame the religion, I blame the people and their society.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Java's done the same for me. The difference is that I don't have to shower for hours every day to try and wash the stink and shame off.

Hey Java boy. I bet you have lots of tats and piercing and probably use a Mac as well.

Real men use 3270 dumb terminals and wear ties like Dilbert ....

Charlie (defending Cobol, sheesh) Monoxide

 

[Mephisto]

Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/26/afghan.convert/

But they HAVE murdered abortion doctors and bombed clinics, all in the name of God.

 

[Mephisto]

How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying.

Well if we're in the business of converting people to less aggressive religions why aren't we making them Quakers or Buddhists, oh yeah, they're often Conscientious Objectors to military service and violence. Not expedient when we're trying to create a bastion of Democracy, eh?

 

[Cleon]

Hey Java boy. I bet you have lots of tats and piercing and probably use a Mac as well.

Please. There is no OS but Linux, and Linus is its coder.

Real men use 3270 dumb terminals and wear ties like Dilbert ....

Whereas programmers wear t-shirts and code on actual computers.

Charlie (defending Cobol, sheesh) Monoxide

It's nothing to be ashamed of. The first step is to admit you have a problem...

 

[Mephisto]

To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions.

A better comparison?

How about comparing which religions in the U.S. want their 10 Rules emblazoned on the walls of public buildings. How about comparing which religions are pushing for prayer in schools (you don't honestly think that a Jew, a Muslim or a Satanist will be welcome at the microphone when blessing the football team, do you?). How about comparing which religions are pushing that their beliefs on the origin of mankind be taught alongside science? How about abortion - which religions in the U.S. are dictating what rights a woman has with her own body? How about Stem Cell research - who is protesting that the sanctity of life extends to a single cell? Which religions are up in arms about taking a woman who had been in a persistent vegetative state for 14 years off life support?

I'd rather just live in the U.S. when we regain our Bill of Rights which also provides us with freedom FROM religion.

 

[SteveGrenard]

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

 

[CFLarsen]

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments.

Again, you show your very limited knowledge of Islamic matters.

 

[Tony]

Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

Which secular laws?

 

[Cleon]

Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

No, they didn't. Let's review, shall way?

1. I am the Lord thy God. (Not, to my knowledge, currently enshrined in secular law.)
2. No graven images of what is in the heavens above. (Nope, no law there, either.)
3. Do not take the Lord's name in vain. (Goddammit! No laws broken there...)
4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. (Blue laws not withstanding, there's really no secular law keeping me from doing whatever the $%^& I want on Shabbos.)
5. Honor your father and mother. (Do I really need to even go there?)
6. Thou shalt not kill/murder. (OK, something secular, finally. However, I think I can safely say that the secular prohibition against wacking people dates back before the Ten C.)
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Definitely no secular law here.)
8. Thou shalt not steal. (The second one enshrined in law, but again, this goes back before the Commandments.)
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness. (Debatable, I suppose. Lying is perfectly legal, except under certain legal conditions--and that's more of a practical need to try and keep witnesses honest than a holdover from the ten commandments.)
10. No covetting of other people's stuff. (Well, hell, wanting other people's stuff is the basis of capitalist economy. How are you going to form a law against that?)

So, final score:

Two commandments that are definitely in secular law, however, it seems that in those cases the Big Ten are based on the secular law rather than vice-versa. Or there's widespread agreement that killing and stealing are Bad.

One commandment (bearing false witness) that could be considered the basis of a secular law, but the law seems more based on practical need than religious imperative.

So at best we're talking 3/10, and those three are questionable as to whether they REALLY "form the basis of secular law."

 

[Walk The Line]

So it has nothing to do with shifting views of society? It's all based on "our religion is holier than yours"?

I'm not saying any religion is holier than another. I just made the point that more tolerant and secular societies have been borne out of Christianity than Islam. A reasonable conclusion to me, and I'm willing to be shown that I am wrong, is that Christianity is at least partially responsible for the change (though not completely).

Riiiiiiiight... so Christian countries have always been "more tolerant" of other religions? Does this count Wicca? Or the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition?

Or the treatment of the Catholic immigrants by the Protestants? The KKK formed entirely to attack the Catholics that were seen as encroaching on the way of life of the Protestants. And that was fairly recent.

Society changed, not the religion. Society changed the people that followed the religion.

And prior to the American Civil War a number of Christian preachers actively and vocally worked against slavery. And during the Civil Rights movement, much of the organization behind protests/marches came from black Christian churches.

Christianity has done, and is capable of doing good for people (note: I am not saying that is incapable of error either).

You would've been killed for converting in the past! What do you think the Spanish Inquisition was about in the first place? And in many "Christian" countries, they aren't exactly tolerant... see the "Time of Troubles", or the people abandoned for not converting to Christianity left to die in Indonesia.

Yes, I would have been killed in the past, but Christianity of today is not the same as Christianity of 800 years ago.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear in my last message that I think that as of today (not Christianity hundreds of years ago, I quite enjoy living in the modern world), Christianity would be an improvement over Islam.

If you want to show that Islam is a preferable religion then I am still waiting.

Dunno about suicide bombers, but what about bombers that killed police officers and doctors in abortion clinics?

Yes, and in every society there will be murder (even Athiest ones such at the former Soviet Union). But that does not invalidate the idea that Christianity is better than Islam.

Quite frankly, I don't blame the religion, I blame the people and their society.

You can't separate a religion from society when a clear majority of the people of that society beleive in religion.

To me it is clear that a majority of Christian countries are ahead of Muslim countries in terms of women's rights, drinking alcohol, and freedom of expression/religion.

I'm willing to be shown that I am wrong, but I don't see any evidence that has been presented to convince me that I am wrong.

 

[CFLarsen]

6. Thou shalt not kill/murder. (OK, something secular, finally. However, I think I can safely say that the secular prohibition against wacking people dates back before the Ten C.)

8. Thou shalt not steal. (The second one enshrined in law, but again, this goes back before the Commandments.)

Two commandments that are definitely in secular law, however, it seems that in those cases the Big Ten are based on the secular law rather than vice-versa. Or there's widespread agreement that killing and stealing are Bad.

One commandment (bearing false witness) that could be considered the basis of a secular law, but the law seems more based on practical need than religious imperative.

So at best we're talking 3/10, and those three are questionable as to whether they REALLY "form the basis of secular law."

None of these are particular to the 10 Commandments, or the three religions. I can't think of any society ever where it was permissible to kill or steal (or even bear false witness).

 

[Cleon]

None of these are particular to the 10 Commandments, or the three religions. I can't think of any society ever where it was permissible to kill or steal (or even bear false witness).

Exactly my point. At BEST we're talking 30%, and even of those, there's no clear line that the secular equivalents are based on the 10C rather than the more likely idea that it's the other way around.

 

[Elind]

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

Now who are you quoting here? Pat Robertson, Scalia, GWB?

Which of those rule have actual legal counterpoints in our laws? Let's see, I can come up with 3. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness.

Did I forget any?

Last question:

Would anybody in their right mind think that Neanderthals didn't have the same rules; right up to Moses' time?

Sheesh..

 

[Walk The Line]

A better comparison?

How about comparing which religions in the U.S. want their 10 Rules emblazoned on the walls of public buildings. How about comparing which religions are pushing for prayer in schools (you don't honestly think that a Jew, a Muslim or a Satanist will be welcome at the microphone when blessing the football team, do you?). How about comparing which religions are pushing that their beliefs on the origin of mankind be taught alongside science? How about abortion - which religions in the U.S. are dictating what rights a woman has with her own body? How about Stem Cell research - who is protesting that the sanctity of life extends to a single cell? Which religions are up in arms about taking a woman who had been in a persistent vegetative state for 14 years off life support?

I'd rather just live in the U.S. when we regain our Bill of Rights which also provides us with freedom FROM religion.

I agree with you that in the United States Christianity is attempting to push it's way into schools and science, and I do not agree with it. But that does not mean an Islamic society is better than a Christian society, which is what we are comparing here.

I could raise the point that in Saudia Arabia that open practice of other religions is not even allowed.

Or that stem cell research in muslim countries probably isn't as extensive as that in Christian countries (though I don't know for sure).

Or that in a number of Islamic countries, women can't drive or vote (though this has been changing for the better), or even wear something beyond veils.

So, like I said, if you have evidence that Islamic countries are an improvment over Christian countries I'd love to hear it.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Now who are you quoting here? Pat Robertson, Scalia, GWB?

Which of those rule have actual legal counterpoints in our laws? Let's see, I can come up with 3. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness.

Did I forget any?

Last question:

Would anybody in their right mind think that Neanderthals didn't have the same rules; right up to Moses' time?

Sheesh..

Secular laws based on the tablets predate Robertson and Bush. The important question is it true or not?

I presume you have some evidence as good as the written ten commandments to support the neanderthal assertion? Did neanderthals live up to Moses' time?