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The brain & human experience

Lifegazer, you seem to keep trying to convince people that nothing is real. Please tell me, is there any benefit in believing that? You'd still have to function in the same world, in the same way, wouldn't you?
Actually, if and when the majority of the people on this earth ever came to believe the ultimate conclusion of this philosophy, you wouldn't believe the changes that would take place. No more borders, wars, inequalities, etc..
There's a massive difference between identifying the self as a localised body within the experience of the world (distinct and apart from everything else)and identifying oneself as The ExperiencER that embraces the totality of that experience - seeing The Experiencer as the essence of all experience.
 
It doesn't have to be real to be true though. Did Einstein have to really travel at the speed of light in order for his idea to be true?
The laws of physics actually relate to the order that exists amongst the experienced world. A scientist can only observe his experience.
So no, it doesn't have to be real to discern order. And your comment is irrelevant.
It turns out that science is the most effect tool we have for collecting information and finding out what is real and what is not.
There's a specific order inherent within the experienced world. All one can say is that science collects info which enables to understand more of this order. However, science has zero information regarding the actual reality of anything.
You pooh-pooh science's abilities even as you enjoy the marvels of its success.
Completely irrelevant. That mankind can understand the order inherent within experience and then manipulate that order for the benefit of experienced beings is not even an issue nor a counter to anything I have said.

I "pooh pooh" the attitudes of science to the essential causality of experienced things/forces.
... When an establishment reaches the point of pondering the essential causality of human experience and then studies an experienced object (the brain) as a cause of that experience, the folly of it all must be pointed out.

One cannot find the cause of human experience within experience!
 
Actually, if and when the majority of the people on this earth ever came to believe the ultimate conclusion of this philosophy, you wouldn't believe the changes that would take place. No more borders, wars, inequalities, etc..
There's a massive difference between identifying the self as a localised body within the experience of the world (distinct and apart from everything else)and identifying oneself as The ExperiencER that embraces the totality of that experience - seeing The Experiencer as the essence of all experience.

I'm sorry but that sounds very vague to me. Could you give an example of how I would handle a situation differently when I 'identify myself as The ExperiencER that embraces the totality of that experience' ?
 
I'm sorry but that sounds very vague to me. Could you give an example of how I would handle a situation differently when I 'identify myself as The ExperiencER that embraces the totality of that experience' ?
Perhaps it is vague, though surely you understand the implications for mankind given the distinction between identifying oneself with The One as opposed to a small and separate part of the whole?

The mindset (attitudes/emotions/desires) of humanity - generally speaking - has always reflected a mass of different individuals all with different agendas and in competition with one another. Many groups have formed, of course (nationalities/religions etc.), but even these have their own specific agendas and are in competition with one another. Hence wars & inequalities etc..
This specific self-belief is associated with what has been labelled 'the [selfish] ego'.

... It doesn't require much consideration to realise that identifying oneself (and all others) with The One is the beginning of the end for egotistical attitudes/emotions/desires and the beginning of the end for borders/wars etc., which equates to a drastic change in the way a human being thinks & acts - both individually and as a whole.
 
Lifegazer said:
Perhaps it is vague, though surely you understand the implications for mankind given the distinction between identifying oneself with The One as opposed to a small and separate part of the whole?

If science is based on a monism then this statement is meaningless. There would be no separate part of the whole. There would only be a monistic whole of which individuals are a part. Since there is no way to objectively tell the difference between Berkleyan idealism and monistic materialism why should anyone believe your take on reality over their own? Monism is monism. There can be no separation, only folks who misidentify themselves as separate from the monistic whole.

*edit to add*

Egoism is the result of dualism. There is no room for egoism in any monism, whatever its stripe.
 
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Lifegazer, you claim that anyone who comes to this realization would be able to affect the world around them, move mountains etc.

You left the forum to concentrate on an experiment, claiming that you wouldn't be back if it didn't work, and that if it did you would change the world. You're back, and as far as I can tell the world hasn't changed. You also now claim to be a gnostic acolyte, and as such do have the true realization mentioned above.

So how's the mountain moving coming along?
 
The ego is an idea or belief, held by the self. There is always room for mistaken notions regarding self-identity within monism.

Technically speaking there is no self in monism, properly viewed. Certainly not in material monism, whatever matter is. In Berkleyian idealism since everything depends on the mind of God the self seems also to be a misnomer. Hammegk's version of objective idealism seems to contain the same idea since he is fond of repeating Atman=Brahman. Of course there is room for mistaken notions of self-identity within monism, but that is true of all monisms. People can make mistakes. Properly viewed, however, self is non-existent in all monisms, at least the way I look at it.
 
The mindset (attitudes/emotions/desires) of humanity - generally speaking - has always reflected a mass of different individuals all with different agendas and in competition with one another.

I'm sorry, it still sounds very vague to me. I'm trying to understand what you mean. I'll give some examples of situations. I'm interested how someone with the belief you're talking about (let's call him mr. L) would handle those situations.

So, mr. L 'identifies himself with The One as opposed to a small and separate part of the whole'.

During a famine, if L finds a bit of food, would he share it with his son or with a stranger if he had to choose? Or with the stranger's starving dog?
If there wasn't enough drinking water, and L only has one glass of water to last an entire day, would he drink it himself or pour it in an almost dried up mud puddle to save the dying population of microbes in the puddle?
 
Completely irrelevant. That mankind can understand the order inherent within experience and then manipulate that order for the benefit of experienced beings is not even an issue nor a counter to anything I have said.

Do you realize how absurd what you just wrote is? The only reason we can manipulate things is because they are, in fact, real.

My senses, though flawed in some cases, are very good indicators that an event has taken place. If I drop a hammer on my toe, I get the visual imput from my eyes of it alling and hitting my toe, the audio input from my ears, the pain input from my toe, etc.

This event was real despite all the input from my senses. My senses simply recorded it. They may have been very accurate or only slightly accurate but the event they recorded was very real.

If the same thing happens to you, what evidence are you going to put forth that the event wasn't real?

Remember, science is based on probability not proof. Can you raise the probability that the event didn't happen higher than my senses raised the probability that it did?

It is now incumbent upon you to explain away my evidence and not simply ignore it. Don't worry, I have a bunch more evidence to come.
 
me said:
Define what is meant by real and I'll see what I can do.
Lifegazer said:
The existence of entities beyond the experience of them.
No problem. Entities clearly exist beyond your experience of them, or you would be required to experience everything around you, constantly and continuously, in order to keep them coherent. You do not have to do this. Therefore these things exist without your experiencing them. They are real.

~~ Paul
 
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Why not edit your post by simply calling me a liar?

I was expressing doubts, not asserting a belief. But, you proved yourself in the rest of your message...

There's nothing wrong with the material I have presented here.

There's Darren's famous denial of facts...

... It exposes the actual belief in the reality of 'the brain' (the reality of any 'thing', actually) as a sham.

... his token straw-man...

There's ZERO rationale for claiming any material object exists, least of all the brain!

... his highly erroneous beliefs...

.. Also, the fact that experienced objects are reducible to sensations means that "tampering with the brain" (e.g., drugs or axe etc.) to show that emotions & thoughts are affected by such an activity, ONLY proves that thinking-experience & emotional-experience is affected by sensory-experience. It does NOT prove that 'the [real] brain' controls thinking & emotions.
This should be apparent when one observes the effects thoughts & emotions can have on the physical state of the brain & body. However, this is reducible to the fact that thoughts & emotions have the potential to effect the sensations [of there being a brain & body and the current states of them].
Your fears/loves etc., have the potential to alter the state(s) of your brain & body as much as tampering with the structure of the brain/body has the potential to alter the state(s) of your thoughts & emotions.

...the hilarious conclusions resulting from his erroneous beliefs and strawmen arguments...

This obvious fact is overlooked by materialists/scientists. Nevertheless, it is true. Moreover, philosophy can reduce all experience to the fact that there is an intrinsic relationship between thought, feeling & sensation (of body/world).

... even more straw men and erroneous beliefs...

In other words, there is ZERO evidence (scientific or rational) to suggest that there is a relationship between a real brain and thought & emotion. That is just the obsolete outlook. The neanderthal view.

... his famous 'Down-the-nose/zealous-repetition-of-strawman' move...

... The view which you still harbour in spite of sound analysis by myself.

... his trademarked ego-stoking...

And for what it's worth, I really don't give a **** whether you believe I'm married or not. Regardless, your judgement of my personal life or my character, is meaningless with regards the philosophy I present on this board.
So don't make a complete t**t of yourself by trying to attack my character as a means to attack my philosophy.
It just exposes you for the s******d that you are.

And, of course, could it ever really be Darren if he didn't stoop to insults, name-calling, and thinly-veiled cursing once he realizes - at whatever level - that his post is another steaming pile of errors, straw-men, and general dung?

Welcome back after all, Darren!

As to your posts - nope. Nothing new here. These are all OLD arguments, long ago reduced to rubble. And, as usual, he cannot demonstrate a single actual benefit which arises from his beliefs, short of what might happen if enough people convert and he happens to be right..

And, of course, his flat denial to speak of the 'miraculous event' or whatever he left the forum to 'allegedly attempt'.

Yeah, whatever. Nothing to see here, people... move along.
 
Perhaps it is vague, though surely you understand the implications for mankind given the distinction between identifying oneself with The One as opposed to a small and separate part of the whole?

The mindset (attitudes/emotions/desires) of humanity - generally speaking - has always reflected a mass of different individuals all with different agendas and in competition with one another. Many groups have formed, of course (nationalities/religions etc.), but even these have their own specific agendas and are in competition with one another. Hence wars & inequalities etc..
This specific self-belief is associated with what has been labelled 'the [selfish] ego'.

... It doesn't require much consideration to realise that identifying oneself (and all others) with The One is the beginning of the end for egotistical attitudes/emotions/desires and the beginning of the end for borders/wars etc., which equates to a drastic change in the way a human being thinks & acts - both individually and as a whole.

I am Borg, I want 7 of 9.
 
This isn't really a new idea though. It's just the same old "hippy ideal" of everyone realizing "we're all in this together man!". True enough, except for one small problem. They ARE seperate beings. Even if you yourself are fully and completely aware that we are all in this together, how are you going to convince crazy religious guy with the gun over there to work together with you for the sake of harmony and so on and so forth? You probably won't. You may become one with a bullet, but that's about it.

Your philosophy won't do jack. On the other hand, if we network all our brains and do the borg thing, THEN you can see the truth of it. Too bad your individuality will be utterly destroyed in the process.

Look at it this way. You yourself believe what you say, but we don't. Doesn't that ALONE tell you that this ideal won't actually result in harmony among all peoples?
 
Scientists seek to understand how 'the brain' causes human experience.

Firstly, this is evidence supporting my claim that science views the [experienced] world-of-things as real-in-themselves.
... This is an error, of course, because nothing within experience is actually real. The distinction between experienced-things and real-things should be clear to any sincere reader, by now.

LG, please explain how you make this distinction between what is real and what is sensed?
 
Doesn't that ALONE tell you that this ideal won't actually result in harmony among all peoples?
You are too impatient sir. So what if it has been years and no one has embraced his philosophy. Each journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Now, granted, if you count people as steps then no steps have been taken. However there are only, just a minute...

OMG, there are 6,500,000,000+ people in the world.

You know what? Never mind. Gazer philosophy isn't going anywhere.
 
What I mean to say is that this particular philosophy suggests that we are all one single being and when we realize that, wars stop.

Well aside from the fact that simply working together alone would be enough to do that, there's hte issue that if we actually were connected to this odd degree lg seems to suggest, only one person would need to figure out it and it would spread like some sort of magical trippy wave to everyone else becuase since we are all one, "we" finally figured it out.
 
What I mean to say is that this particular philosophy suggests that we are all one single being and when we realize that, wars stop.

Well aside from the fact that simply working together alone would be enough to do that, there's hte issue that if we actually were connected to this odd degree lg seems to suggest, only one person would need to figure out it and it would spread like some sort of magical trippy wave to everyone else becuase since we are all one, "we" finally figured it out.
Yeah, and that is my point. It isn't happening. FWIW, this isn't the only forum gazer has visited and I believe he has even been kicked out of more than one. My apologies if I'm wrong.

It just isn't happening. If gazer is our savior he's not doing a very good job of it. We need a Kant or Aquinas...

Actually, no.
 
Coconuts are very good. You can make a delicious cake with coconuts and flour and sugar and oil and milk or you can use a box mix. But it doesn't really matter because i transcend what you think of as reality because of the duality of matter when constructed of heavy energy particles which aren't really real because I just thought of them but they aren't really there I just think they are but I am probably oh wait I can't be wrong because I am the gazer on life and have a neat degree - or not- perhaps that was a dream but it certainly felt like rain. I'm going home or somewhere to think this out.
 

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