do beliefs or actions make one christian?

[bpesta22]

So, I was arguing on myspace (I know, I should probably stop right here....) and the topic came up about what makes one a true christian.

Christians want the "get out of evil free" card by dismissing an evil committed by a christian by claiming, "well, they are not true christians".

I argued that the belief one holds-- if sincere-- that jesus is the risen son of god, makes one a christian independent of his actions (i.e., whether he donates to the poor or steals from him, he's a christian).

A fundie came up with this retort, which made me smile and decide to post it here:

1) According to Christian belief, even Satan and his demons believe that Jesus is the risen Son of God. In fact, they know it better than anyone to be true. That definition isn't very effective.

from a second poster:

2) Satan believes Jesus is the risen Son of God he knows Jesus is Christ. Satan is Not a Christian...A Christian follows Christs teachings and strives to be without sin.


LOL!

Anyone wanna take a stab at these arguments?

In general, do christians get to validly use the get out of evil free card by labelling people as non christians whenever they commit some evil?

 

[slingblade]

Anecdotally, yes. For many years, in attendance at many churches, I was taught since childhood that accepting Christ creates a fundamental change in a person, and they no longer have any desire to do wrong any more. Jesus takes that desire away from you, so you can serve him properly.

If, after accepting Christ and becoming a Christian, you still want to do wrong, then it "didn't take," and it is your fault. You must not be a "true Christian," because true Christians do not desire to sin, and that's how they can tell if you belong in the God Club or not. You must have secretly harbored evil in your heart, or Satan must have a very strong hold on you (totally negating your free will) and you aren't strong enough to break free. Or, secretly, you don't really wish to break free. You want to continue to do evil while pretending to serve God, but that won't work, because God isn't fooled!

IOW, to answer your final question: yes. Some do. At least, they think they do, and who are you to argue with that?

 

[sphenisc]

Romans 10:9-10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Both belief and positive action based on that belief seem to be required.

 

[Tricky]

LOL. Do you mean a True Christian?

I say if you believe you are a Christian, then you are. Though nobody can agree what a True Christian is, you can still be a regular Christian.

 

[BenK]

I was told that to be a christian you had to accept jesus as your saviour, you don't have to do anything else. I take this accepting process to be different from merely acknowledging his existence.

 

[Trantor]

If being a true Christian requires belief and actions to back up those beliefs; then in my opinion, based on personal experience, finding a true Christian is going to be very difficult indeed!

All the Christians I've ever met(and there's been many), do a nice job of talking the talk, but fail miserably in walking the walk. The essence of Jesus's message was "unselfishness". I don't know anyone who practices that, and the Christians may be the most selfish of all. Most if not all unselfish acts that they commit are for show. Here, look, see what a good Christian I am.

I think that if the AntiChrist finally showed up and gave a little test of truth that asked one single question - Are you a true follower of Jesus? Answering with a lie would mean death and the fires of Hell, because God and the Devil are both watching and know the truth. I'm sure there wouldn't be any true followers of Jesus, especially the preachers who spread the so-called "Word of God".

 

[Genesius]

A fundie came up with this retort, which made me smile and decide to post it here:

1) According to Christian belief, even Satan and his demons believe that Jesus is the risen Son of God. In fact, they know it better than anyone to be true. That definition isn't very effective.

One flaw in the fundie's argument: Satan and his demons don't "believe that Jesus is the risen Son of God", they'd know it for a fact. Thus they have no faith, thus they wouldn't qualify as Christian.

Just goes to show the usual Christian confusion between "belief" and "knowledge".

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

This is one of my biggest beefs with Christianity. You don’t seem to have to do anything.

Contrast this with the other two Abrahamic religions. In Judaism, for example, a large part of your day is consumed with following your religion, from the clothes you put on, to the things you eat, to the prayers you pray. There are specific prayers for specific foods, a prayer for when you see a rainbow, a prayer for when you go to the bathroom. The first thing you do on waking and the last thing before going to sleep is to pray. And if praying isn’t “doing” enough for you, we can talk about keeping the Sabbath.

In fact, Christians, as far as I can tell, don’t even have to do that much (keep the Sabbath). They want the Ten Commandments plastered everywhere, but are not themselves required to follow them all.

The difference between an observant and non-observant Jew is stark. As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as an “observant” Christian. It appears to me, as I stated in a previous thread, to be the "laziest" religion*.

*except for the Mormons

 

[bpesta22]

Romans 10:9-10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Both belief and positive action based on that belief seem to be required.

Odd, my reading of the quote is that all one need do is believe and assert the belief.

How do you get "action based on the belief is required" beyond the action of professing the belief.

tia!

 

[slingblade]

Odd, my reading of the quote is that all one need do is believe and assert the belief.

How do you get "action based on the belief is required" beyond the action of professing the belief.

tia!

Two actions: to confess with the mouth, and to believe with the heart. If it starts with "to" then it's something you do. (<--perils of being an English teacher-aspirant: the cute little sayings.) So, I guess that's how one might come up with faith plus action.

 

[sphenisc]

What slingblade said.

Slingblade, how did the churches you went to deal with the concept of temptation for a Christian? Can a Christian be tempted to sin as Christ was, and if so how does this work if "true Christians do not desire to sin"?

From my experience the answer to the OP final question would be, some don't.
Most Christians I know would say that they've been tempted to sin at some point in their Christian lives (most of them, daily), and I'd assume that meant there was a possibility of committing evil.

If you want an answer 'In general' then I'd be happy to do a worldwide survey of Christians, if you provide the funding. (i.e. I don't know)

 

[David Swidler]

I'm not sure the issue is really such a big deal. Fundie "logic" aside, I'd reasonably assume that one who at least makes an effort to behave - and that behavior is consistent with, or stems from, belief - then the characterization fits. It's pretty unreasonable to demand 100% success in resisting temptation.

 

[slingblade]

Sphenisc, I can only repeat what I was reared in, and don't speak for all denominations. (Standard disclaimer, see article 666, paragraph 13.)

In my denomination, Assembly of God (Pentecost), we were taught that you will be tempted, but if you are right with God, you will be able to resist because God will give you the strength. Temptations are tests from God. He allows Satan full access to us, to see if we will "backslide" and fall back into sin (because apparently God doesn't know). But the true Christian can resist temptation, and if you feel yourself wavering, you can always pray and banish Satan in Jesus' name.

It is also possible that if you still feel the desire to sin, that you have let your guard down, and have been possessed by a demon. I once was exorcised, although it's doubtless not much like the Catholic version. It "took," but another demon immediately took up residence in me....apparently. So they said. Strange how you can pray and banish Satan, but never have a clue that there are other, presumably minor demons living inside you.

However, the overriding message was that you could gauge your relationship with God by how often you were tempted. A little, and God knew he could trust you. A lot.....and you must not be gittin' it, girlie.

So, the better your walk with Christ, the less you desired sin, and the less often God would tempt you. Naturally, any error is your fault. God is perfect.

 

[sphenisc]

Sphenisc, I can only repeat what I was reared in, and don't speak for all denominations. (Standard disclaimer, see article 666, paragraph 13.)

In my denomination, Assembly of God (Pentecost), we were taught that you will be tempted, but if you are right with God, you will be able to resist because God will give you the strength. Temptations are tests from God. He allows Satan full access to us, to see if we will "backslide" and fall back into sin (because apparently God doesn't know). But the true Christian can resist temptation, and if you feel yourself wavering, you can always pray and banish Satan in Jesus' name.

It is also possible that if you still feel the desire to sin, that you have let your guard down, and have been possessed by a demon. I once was exorcised, although it's doubtless not much like the Catholic version. It "took," but another demon immediately took up residence in me....apparently. So they said. Strange how you can pray and banish Satan, but never have a clue that there are other, presumably minor demons living inside you.

However, the overriding message was that you could gauge your relationship with God by how often you were tempted. A little, and God knew he could trust you. A lot.....and you must not be gittin' it, girlie.

So, the better your walk with Christ, the less you desired sin, and the less often God would tempt you. Naturally, any error is your fault. God is perfect.

Thanks for that Slingblade.

I, of course, was taught pretty much the exact opposite - the further you progress in the Christian life, the more temptation you should expect. I attended all sorts of churches, Church of Scotland, House Church, Baptist, Episcopal, and visited Pentecostal, Salvation Army, Catholic, Methodist etc. Can't say I spent a lot of time analysing differences of doctrine, but I guess that opinions would be pretty diverse on most things, including 'the desire to sin'.

Sorry to hear about your demonic possession, hope you're feeling better now.

 

[H3LL]

If I perform act identical to those of a "christian" does that make me a christian also?

If I should go out today, acquire myself a slave, abuse and humiliate my wife, stone some children and smash a baby's skull on a rock, would that make me a christian? A criminal yes, but a christian??

What actions make a christian would seem to be unknown. All, some, none, only the good bits, only the bad bits, any bit depending on my mood, all if it's an enemy of me/god?

Surely, in practice, it must be belief only.

There are several mass murderers that are/were devout christians. Their actions don't make them not christian. They will still tick the box loony christian if asked their religion and who could argue with them. I've never witnessed anyone argue about someone's stated religion as you might about a political position.

"Weeeeell! You SAY your a christian, but I'm not so sure. You seem to have a few jewish tendancies with a definite islam leaning on women. I have also noticed that you're a bit hindu when it comes to money with a touch of norse in business. Don't-you-think.....?"

.

 

[slingblade]

Thanks for that Slingblade.

I, of course, was taught pretty much the exact opposite - the further you progress in the Christian life, the more temptation you should expect. I attended all sorts of churches, Church of Scotland, House Church, Baptist, Episcople, and visited Pentecostal, Salvation Army, Catholic, Methodist etc. Can't say I spent a lot of time analysing differences of doctrine, but I guess that opinions would be pretty diverse on most things, including 'the desire to sin'.

Much later in my life, towards the end of my belief in god and my first marriage, a pastor tried to tell me something like that. "You are going through all these trials because you are beloved of God." It almost broke me, right there and then. You mean the better I am at this, the more I'm going to be hurt??? What's the point in that, and whose idea was it to appoint the sadistic bassturd?

Sorry to hear about your demonic possession, hope you're feeling better now.

Turned out to be gas. I'm all good. And you are most welcome. Thank you.

 

[PenguinWarrior]

If being a true Christian requires belief and actions to back up those beliefs; then in my opinion, based on personal experience, finding a true Christian is going to be very difficult indeed!

All the Christians I've ever met(and there's been many), do a nice job of talking the talk, but fail miserably in walking the walk. The essence of Jesus's message was "unselfishness". I don't know anyone who practices that, and the Christians may be the most selfish of all. Most if not all unselfish acts that they commit are for show. Here, look, see what a good Christian I am.

I've got to say that I really disagree with this. Whilst I do think religion is on balance rather (in fact very) harmful to the world, individual Christians can be just as nice and good as any other type of person. And it's not just for show, or to follow the orders of God, or to get into heaven, it's because they are good people. In fact, a lot (in fact all, to some degree) of Christians will have their own moral code (that will approximate with the sort of Golden Rule/Utilitarian ideals that an ethical atheist will attempt to follow) and project God onto that (as, since it's OBVIOUS it's the right thing to do, it's OBVIOUS that it's what God would want, since he is all good), rather than allowing the Bible to dictate to them (many have probably never actually read it anyway). Certainly this is how I was during my Christian years (I.e. Up 'til the age of 17/18. I was actually quite shocked at some of the things that the Bible/Church claims as moral and immoral. Gay people are evil? No sex before marriage? You have to believe in God to get into Heaven? No way!), and it's how my Christian friends are, without exception (although some of them have actually read the Bible).

Of course, I would argue that these sort of people are to some extent ethical in spite of, rather than because of, religion, and are the sort of people who would cope perfectly well if they lost their faith, after a period of readjustment. I would also argue that religion does lead to bigotry and hatred and conflict. But not all religious people are like that, and atheists shouldn't be fooled by Ann Coulter or whoever into thinking otherwise.

 

[Trantor]

I've got to say that I really disagree with this. Whilst I do think religion is on balance rather (in fact very) harmful to the world, individual Christians can be just as nice and good as any other type of person. And it's not just for show, or to follow the orders of God, or to get into heaven, it's because they are good people. In fact, a lot (in fact all, to some degree) of Christians will have their own moral code (that will approximate with the sort of Golden Rule/Utilitarian ideals that an ethical atheist will attempt to follow) and project God onto that (as, since it's OBVIOUS it's the right thing to do, it's OBVIOUS that it's what God would want, since he is all good), rather than allowing the Bible to dictate to them (many have probably never actually read it anyway). Certainly this is how I was during my Christian years (I.e. Up 'til the age of 17/18. I was actually quite shocked at some of the things that the Bible/Church claims as moral and immoral. Gay people are evil? No sex before marriage? You have to believe in God to get into Heaven? No way!), and it's how my Christian friends are, without exception (although some of them have actually read the Bible).

Of course, I would argue that these sort of people are to some extent ethical in spite of, rather than because of, religion, and are the sort of people who would cope perfectly well if they lost their faith, after a period of readjustment. I would also argue that religion does lead to bigotry and hatred and conflict. But not all religious people are like that, and atheists shouldn't be fooled by Ann Coulter or whoever into thinking otherwise.

You have your opinion. Mine comes from years of being a member of a Fundie Church and seeing the games that are played there, and also by visiting other local Fundie Churches. I played the game, just like others did. I was secure in my beliefs at the time, but largely, it was all a bunch of superficial BS - a show. I gave in to temptations just like everybody else did, and then I felt bad for it and tried to hide it. I blamed Satan or Demons, but I maintained my image of being a true Christian, until I just couldn't take the BS anymore.

I remember once, several years after I had left the Church, I was at my parents house visiting, and my mother had a church friend over after her church service. She asked me what church I went to since I was not going to my mother's church. I looked at her and told her that I no longer went to church and was not interested in ever going back. I told her that I was in a discovery phase in my life and was actually leaning toward being an Agnostic or even an Athiest!

I will never forget the look she gave me. Her natural smile left her quickly and she said with a frown, "an Athiest!" The nice person was gone. I was now the enemy, a friend of Satan! A supporter of evil. My mother and I didn't talk for weeks after this little incident.

I truly felt sorry for her. She lived her role well. The good Christian role, that is indoctrinated and played. And yes, my mother still plays the role, but she has learned to accept me as I am; even thou I know she feels that I am destined for the fires of Hell.

 

[jmercer]

Hm... interesting thread.

Minimally - to be a Christian - you have to accept Christ as your savior and acknowledge Him as the Son of God. That's it - nothing more is needed. His words, I believe.

After that, everything is just a bunch of crap piled on by power-mongering church leaders.

Well... to be totally fair about it... some of the very early stuff was probably added on in order to help differentiate the early church (Read "radical heretical cult", as far as the period Jews were concerned) from other religions. I doubt power-mongering was a priority over survival and growth during those days.

 

[Darth Rotor]

You have your opinion. Mine comes from years of being a member of a Fundie Church and seeing the games that are played there, and also by visiting other local Fundie Churches. I played the game, just like others did. I was secure in my beliefs at the time, but largely, it was all a bunch of superficial BS - a show. I gave in to temptations just like everybody else did, and then I felt bad for it and tried to hide it.

That violates a commandment, which is the bearing of a false witness.
Let's see if I can outline broad Christian doctrine on this temptation and sin thing. I realize a universal explanation runs into considerable variations in practice and technique across denominations, but I think this would fit most Christian churches.

All persons not Jesus Christ are imperfect, since Adam, Eve, Apples and whatnot, so if you aren't Jesus Christ, you are going to trip up at least once in your life, when you are tempted, and so at least once will sin. blush: uh, blush, some of us more than once.)

There is scripture alluding to "all fall short of the glory of God" that can in more modern jargon be understood as "no one is perfect." That is NOT a get out of jail free card, it is a statement of condition, and a warning that one has work to do to deal with sin, and a point zero for the attempts to be as good as one can. (Whoever made the selflessness comment above was dead on. The less selfish we are, and the more selfless we tend to be, the less likely we are to sin.)

The spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, and so on.

When you do sin -- be it minor or major -- there is the challenge of getting back on the right track, and to stop straying, rather than throwing one's hands up at being imperfect and fall into the rathole of despair. Note: the manual says you are imperfect, deal with it. Despair makes the Devil a happy camper.

So, confession, prayer (depends on denomination here), and pastoral counselling are some of the many ways to both confront and accept accountability for one's imperfections of action (sin) ask for forgiveness (be it from God or the local Church, varying by denomination) and then come up with a plan of action (make the promise after the apology to be better, per interpersonal promise keeping methods) that makes a relapse less likely if you follow through on it.

Each day the sun comes up, and a chance to screw up (to sin), or to stay on the straight and narrow is presented to you. Some temptations are stronger than others. The more Faith you have in both your God, your church, your friends who help you through you struggles, their love for you, your family and loved ones, and their love for you, the more likely you are to make a decision that does not result in sin.

Here the role of conscience and integrity come to the fore, and the critical imperative of not lying to yourself -- not bearing false witness to yourself. If you are lying to yourself, you have to sort that out before you can work on a truthful basis with everyone else.

That strikes me as one of the reasons for the old adage "confession is good for the soul."

So, in more words than was probably necessary, Faith and actions and the acknowledgment that it takes continual integrity and awareness to stay as close as possible to the straight and narrow are required to live a Christian life. Whoever thought it was supposed to be easy? Who sold that bill of goods? The rewards, both here on Earth while living, and elsewhere, don't come without some effort and sincerity on your part. "You reap what you sow" and other such aphorisms are handy here.

When you do fall, lose the drama! Avoid the rending of garments, the gnashing of teeth! Pick yourself up and dust yourself off, with aid of friends and family (and/or clergy) if you need help (Pride is of course a sin) and get back on the horse of Life.

DR