HRW Report about Lebanon

[geni]

Aren't the Palestinian prisoners of that ilk?

Not really. Of the 9000 odd only about 600 have not been charged or been given a trial.

 

[Darat]

No, darat, if you are referring in a backhanded way to my post #12, I totally disagree with your classification of the questions I asked as "conspiracy theory" material ---

• Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.
  
  A simple question that has not been answered:
  
  How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men?
  Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?
  It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

Indeed, from the known facts, a mysterious "register" was maintained of the people in that building. From the known facts, the people in that building did not live there. From the known facts (photographic images of the bodies on the site) there were several men among the 12 adult fatailites. From the known facts, the names of the fatailites are available in the public record, and it should be a relatively simple matter to compare these names with known Hezbollah members. That's why we have journalists -- this is the type of thing they can accomplish, as investigators with access to the facts. It is a very basic function of their jobs.

I am not suggesting a 'conspiracy' -- I am asking a simple question:

How many of those 12 adult fatalities in Qana were Hezbollah men?

I do not expect an answer to that question, as I said, because the focus of the journalists has already been distracted by the ongoing rush of events...

Don't think that Geraldo Rivera or Anderson Cooper are gonna take two seconds from their busy schedules to look into that...

Move along, nothing to see here...

Well I wasn't referring to your post but certainly the one above has a hint of a conspiracy theory about it.

 

[geni]

How many of those 12 adult fatalities in Qana were Hezbollah men?

It doesn't matter. At least if the IDF is serious about winning.

 

[geni]

The only prisoners who have any bearing on the Lebanon crisis are Goldwasser and Regev.

Somewhat doubtful. That only holds if you belive that the IDF would stop if they got those men back. I doubt that is the case as it is unlikely hezbollah would.

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

Well there were those members of the Muamar family that the IDF requisitioned the day before Shalit was acquired.

In any case it looks increaseingly doubtful that Shalit is alive.

 

[Geckko]

Oops. Sorry. Yes. Better example.

So it is lawful in Israel to hold them indefinitely? Does that jive with the Geneva Conventions?

I don't think Geneva conventions have anything to do with it? It is a question of whether it is legal in Israel.

 

[webfusion]

Oops. Sorry. Yes. Better example.

So it is lawful in Israel to hold them indefinitely? Does that jibe with the Geneva Conventions?

Israel legal experts maintain that the Conventions do not apply in the instance of palestinian Administrative Detainees (which are covered by Emergency Regulations)

In any case, most palestinians are held in Israeli prisons on specific charges, and either they are incarcerated pending trial, have been convicted, or are unable to get bail. (The amounts of bail set are usually beyond the ability of palestinians to pay -- sometimes in the thousands of shekels -- so they sit and wait until their cases are concluded).

The current number of "administrative detainees" held by the military is 105.
The Israeli Prison Service (IPS) which is under the jurisdiction of the Justice Department (non-military) has another six hundred and fifty

Israel now holds around 9000 palestinians in both military and IPS facilities.

 

[Katana]

Not really. Of the 9000 odd only about 600 have not been charged or been given a trial.

Where did you get this? I haven't come across that factoid.

 

[webfusion]

geni:In any case it looks increasingly doubtful that Shalit is alive.

Evidence?

 

[webfusion]

Where did you get this? I haven't come across that factoid.

We posted at the same time --- see answer in my post #26.

 

[Katana]

I don't think Geneva conventions have anything to do with it? It is a question of whether it is legal in Israel.

Then maybe I don't understand their purpose. When do the Geneva Conventions come into play?

According to www.genevaconventions.org:

The following are rules applicable in all conflicts, regardless of whether the countries in question are signatories of the Geneva Conventions – and regardless of whether the warring party in question is recognized as an independent state.

Didn't the Bush administration get slapped by the Supreme Court recently for saying that the Geneva Conventions didn't apply to the terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/11/congress.guantanamo.ap/index.html

White House spokesman Tony Snow said the policy, outlined in a new Defense Department memo, reflects the recent 5-3 Supreme Court decision blocking military tribunals set up by President Bush. That decision struck down the tribunals because they did not obey international law and had not been authorized by Congress.

The policy, described in a memo by Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, appears to reverse the administration's earlier insistence that the detainees are not prisoners of war and thus not subject to the Geneva protections.

 

[Geckko]

Then maybe I don't understand their purpose. When do the Geneva Conventions come into play?

According to www.genevaconventions.org:

Maybe I don't.

I know they don't apply when you arrest someone on your own territory under domestic laws.

I don't equate a car bomber in Israel as an enemy combatant, but rather a murderer. That was the same stance taken with IRA prisoners who were detained in Britain.

Having said that, I don't know of all the various individual circumstances of every Palestinian currently under arrest, imprisonment or detention and why they are there.

 

[Katana]

Interesting perspective on the emrgency regulations from the Israel Democracy Institute:

When these regulations were effected, the Jewish population of Palestine reacted with fury and very determinedly. This reaction is understandable in light of the extreme impact on human rights issuing from them. The regulations contain no provisions for balancing security needs against human rights. They grant the regime nearly total, unaccountable discretion ( even though the position of the Supreme Court on this point was subsequently softened when it determined that any discretion is by its nature limited) and they have no critiquing mechanism against misuse of authority.

Less understandable is the situation after the state was founded when these regulations were left standing despite the regime's cognizance that they were inappropriate to a democracy.

 

[geni]

geni:In any case it looks increasingly doubtful that Shalit is alive.

Evidence?

He hasn't been found. Keeping a live person in secret in Gaza for this length of time would be difficult.

 

[geni]

Where did you get this? I haven't come across that factoid.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Detainees_and_Prisoners.asp

Admin detainees mean no trial or charges.

 

[Katana]

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Detainees_and_Prisoners.asp

Admin detainees mean no trial or charges.

Thanks.

 

[FreeChile]

Has any independent organization looked over the list of fatalities at Qana?

What do you mean by look over? Human Rights Watch defines itself as an independent organization. Are you recommending that some other organization investigate the Qana incident or do you have a problem with how HRW looked over the list?

HRW prepared this list from "a register" of the names of the people huddled in that building (apparently these individuals were not residents).

There are two lists mentioned in the report: The list of confirmed fatalities, and the register. The register was used for an initial report of the dead based on how many were rescued. However, HRW has taken a different approach. They state the number of confirmed dead, the number of escapes, and based on the number of people on the registry, the number of unknown. The Human Rights Watch report provides the list of confirmed fatalities reported by the Lebanese Red Cross and Tyre hospital. That list includes the age for each individual.

You agree with the HRW report in believing that some of the people in the building were not residents. The people on the register had sought shelter.

Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.

What is a Hezbollah Hotel? Do you find it strange that a shelter would maintain a list of refugees—especially if there are children in it? Why would a Hezbollah Hotel keep a register and not a shelter?

A simple question that has not been answered:

How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men? Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?

Who says that there were Hezbollah men there? Whoever says that should answer that question since they seem to know the answer.

Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?

Because not everyone is interested in finding Hezbollah men.

It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

Since you claim it is “really basic,” please tell them or tell us how to find these Hezbollah men. The simple fact is that the adult fatalities are no longer Hezbollah men. They are dead men.

And in the report by HRW, they remarked --- Israel's contention about Hezbollah men hiding among civilians did not justify its "systematic failure" to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

I read that to mean, yes, Hezbollah are hiding among civilians, but Israel needs to take more care to differentiate better.

Your paraphrase does not reflect what the report concludes and recommeds. Please provide a direct quote if you can. Here is an example.

HRW:

the cases documented here reveal a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians.

 

[webfusion]

He hasn't been found. Keeping a live person in secret in Gaza for this length of time would be difficult.

He could have been taken out, through the hole in the Rafah crossing.

In any case, the working assumption is that he is alive. You really have nothing to back up your words, so why would you post them here?

 

[webfusion]

What do you mean by look over? Human Rights Watch defines itself as an independent organization. Are you recommending that some other organization investigate the Qana incident or do you have a problem with how HRW looked over the list?

I have a problem with HRW.
Where is the list? Has it been made available to the press?
What names are on it?

There are two lists mentioned in the report: The list of confirmed fatalities, and the register. The register was used for an initial report of the dead based on how many were rescued.

I was under the impression that the 'register' was a list of all people in that building, like a hotel register; when you check in, your name is recorded. I thought that Hezbollah provided the HRW with this register, since they had placed the people in the building the night before.

What is a Hezbollah Hotel? Do you find it strange that a shelter would maintain a list of refugees—especially if there are children in it? Why would a Hezbollah Hotel keep a register and not a shelter?

This refers to my previous point --- was there a register being kept of all occupants of the building? It was not a proper 'shelter' nor a proper 'hotel', but was only a temporary refuge. Who led these people there?

Who says that there were Hezbollah men there? Whoever says that should answer that question since they seem to know the answer.

How is anyone anywhere in Lebanon identified as being "Hezbollah" ?
That is why there are a lot of 'civilians' on the death rolls who are actually not 'innocents' but are actually Hezbollah.

Because not everyone is interested in finding Hezbollah men.

I don't know what this means.

Since you claim it is “really basic,” please tell them or tell us how to find these Hezbollah men. The simple fact is that the adult fatalities are no longer Hezbollah men. They are dead men.

If they were Hezbollah men, then they were hiding among civilians and the IDF might have had intelligence information that there were Hezbollah men staying in that building overnight, and the air raid was ordered based on that intel.

Someone, somewhere, in the Israeli chain of command made a decision to bomb that specific building. Could it have been because they had been tipped-off about the presence of Hezbollah men there? (And the presence of women and children was not disclosed) ?

As for the recommendations of HRW --- stuff them.

 

[geni]

He could have been taken out, through the hole in the Rafah crossing.

Maybe but I doubt Mubarak would want captured israelis on his land. HE does quite well out of haveing relitavly peacful relations with Israel.

In any case, the working assumption is that he is alive. You really have nothing to back up your words, so why would you post them here?

Mostly because I find the whole thing darkly amuseing.

 

[fuelair]

...Because Arabs just don't matter.

Not if they are Hammass, Hezdksukrs,Al Qrearender or equivalent. Regular -not really bummed on religion and the crap it brings - Arabs are perfectly fine.