How powerful is the subconscious mind?

[bob_kark]

Ok, I just did something that freaked me out a bit.

I work as a Financial Specialist for a bank. My job consists of creating a record of the client's personal information and suggesting accounts to open for them. I just dealt with a client who was attempting to commit fraud by opening up an account with a false Social Security number.

I wrote his SSN down as he gave it to me on a piece of paper. However, I keyed it in to our system as a different number by accident. When I attempted to pull up a copy of his credit report, I noticed that I had keyed it in improperly. So, I changed it before I pulled the report. When I pulled it, of course I found that the number had never been issued by the Social Security Administration.

Now, for some reason, I decided to run it again with the number I miskeyed. I have no idea why I decided to do this... Anyway, when I pulled it with the number I keyed, it actually pulled the record of the person the client claimed to be. Which is when I freaked out a bit.

I know that Social Security Numbers start with the same number sequence for certain regions of the country. But, I couldn't tell you what number corresponded to what area. However, do you think it may be possible that subconsciously my brain corrected the Social Security Number even though consciously I don't keep track of these patterns? It certainly seems to be that the odds are against me accidently choosing the correct Social Security Number for that specific person, yes it definately was the same name, and the customer repeated the bogus SSN after I pulled both reports.

 

[Soapy Sam]

How many digits difference between the two numbers?

I mean if one was 123456788 and the other 123456789 I think anyone might have made the mistake. If there were six digits of difference, I think we need an explanation.

As for how powerful is the subconscious- How many digits can you keep in your conscious mind at any time? 10? 15?
How many bits of information do your senses process per second? 5 million? Ten million?

Virtually all data processing is unconscious.

 

[Jeff Corey]

...Virtually all data processing is unconscious.

That's an extraordinary claim.Evidence, please?

 

[bob_kark]

How many digits difference between the two numbers?

I mean if one was 123456788 and the other 123456789 I think anyone might have made the mistake. If there were six digits of difference, I think we need an explanation.

As for how powerful is the subconscious- How many digits can you keep in your conscious mind at any time? 10? 15?
How many bits of information do your senses process per second? 5 million? Ten million?

Virtually all data processing is unconscious.

Just one digit in the first position, *XX-XX-XXXX. However, I replaced the incorrect number in the series, 9 seperate positions, with the correct digit, out of 9 alternative digits.

 

[Bikewer]

There was a book out just a few months ago (and speaking of processing, mine isn't working at the moment, can't recall the title) which dealt with the level of subconscious processing that takes place.
This guy (I heard him on a radio program on NPR) was maintaining that virtually all actions and decisions take place at the subconscious level before we become "aware" of them.
I had this on my "must read" list, but of course I had forgotten about it...

The "eureka" effect is quite well documented, any number of people report having the solution to some knotty problem "pop" into their mind while not consciously thinking about it.

 

[Darat]

That's an extraordinary claim.Evidence, please?

I think Soapy may be referring to things like say us catching a ball? "We" aren't aware of any interpretation or processing of the data - we just know (some of the time) where we need to place our hands to catch the ball. Or even having no experience of "where" this sentence came from.

 

[R.Mackey]

Could be "muscle memory," since you had to key it in. Brains are pretty amazing... I live in awe of professional musicians, being a mere hack myself.

In an SS#, only the last four are really variable. The first five correspond to time and place of birth. I always have to gently point this out to private institutions who have no right to SS# but want it anyway for verification purposes... but they'll settle for "just the last four" after already getting your birth info.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Jeff- It does not strike me as extraordinary, merely as simple arithmetic.
The evidence is ubiquitous in (at least my) experience.
If required to recite three telephone numbers while singing a song, I am certain to forget at least one of the numbers in a matter of seconds. My conscious mind just can't handle more than (by my estimate) a few hundred bit / second. Now compare that with what the brain is actually doing in terms of processing sensory input, not to mention monitoring internal regulatory processes. How large would you estimate is the necessary bandwidth?

Catching a ball certainly takes one hell of a lot of control systems, especially doing it while running. Yes that's a fair example, even though the actual conscious part may just involve eyeballing a single angle between ball and catcher.

(It's my suspicion that a vast number of semi autonomous processes run constantly in the brain, many of which are capable of producing output interpretable by consciousness. However I think very, very few of them ever actually capture the attention of consciousness, because it is essentially a very narrow band filter. I think many processes nearly make it , but fail. These are experienced as "tip of the tongue" memory, as "hunches", as "subliminal perception" and (not least) as psychic phenomena. This is pure conjecture of course.)

 

[UserGoogol]

That's an extraordinary claim.Evidence, please?

Consider when you look at stuff. Except in rare exceptions, you generally don't need to consciously think to figure out what you're looking at, you just automatically realize "oh, that's an apple." The senses take in an insane amount of information and the brain breaks this information down into distinct objects automagically.

Whether this comprises the vast majority of data proccessing in the brain is perhaps dubious because it is hard to quantify that sort of thing, but if nothing else a huge amount of data proccessing is done without consciousness mucking around in it.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Indeed. Vision alone probably processes several million bits per second in several stages and in several separate brainregions. What arrives in consciousness is not a megabit picture. It is awareness of an apple.

The unnecessary noise has been stripped out and junked. That takes processing power in huge amounts. Ask any AI programmer.

In addition, all the auditory input, tactile input and visual input have been combined into a single awareness of the world. Some of those signals have been delayed- referred back in time to coincide with the arrival of faster signals. Doubtless a lot of that is "hard wired" in some sense, but there has to be some heavy processing going on just to achieve that consistency.

Incidentally- I think we have all experienced what happens when consciousness gets involved in a normally automated process. Just ask any golfer why they hold their putter like that.

 

[blutoski]

Ok, I just did something that freaked me out a bit.

I work as a Financial Specialist for a bank. My job consists of creating a record of the client's personal information and suggesting accounts to open for them. I just dealt with a client who was attempting to commit fraud by opening up an account with a false Social Security number.

I wrote his SSN down as he gave it to me on a piece of paper. However, I keyed it in to our system as a different number by accident. When I attempted to pull up a copy of his credit report, I noticed that I had keyed it in improperly. So, I changed it before I pulled the report. When I pulled it, of course I found that the number had never been issued by the Social Security Administration.

Now, for some reason, I decided to run it again with the number I miskeyed. I have no idea why I decided to do this... Anyway, when I pulled it with the number I keyed, it actually pulled the record of the person the client claimed to be. Which is when I freaked out a bit.

I know that Social Security Numbers start with the same number sequence for certain regions of the country. But, I couldn't tell you what number corresponded to what area. However, do you think it may be possible that subconsciously my brain corrected the Social Security Number even though consciously I don't keep track of these patterns? It certainly seems to be that the odds are against me accidently choosing the correct Social Security Number for that specific person, yes it definately was the same name, and the customer repeated the bogus SSN after I pulled both reports.

Well, if you're off by one digit, there's a 10% chance you'd get it right. Sounds like the applicant just changed one digit.

Also: is one digit more common in that position?

eg: did you naturally put a 'normal' first digit there? That would increase the odds.


I used to work in a similar role, and this happened sometimes:

There's a MOD10 check, so all baby boomers start with 803.
victim's SIN: 803.926.421
fake SIN: 804.926.421

I'm used to keying in 803, and have never keyed in an 804, so I 'accidentally' key in 803.926.421.

Pretty ordinary.

 

[blutoski]

Well, if you're off by one digit, there's a 10% chance you'd get it right. Sounds like the applicant just changed one digit.

Also: is one digit more common in that position?

eg: did you naturally put a 'normal' first digit there? That would increase the odds.


I used to work in a similar role, and this happened sometimes:

There's a MOD10 check, so all baby boomers start with 803.
victim's SIN: 803.926.421
fake SIN: 804.926.421

I'm used to keying in 803, and have never keyed in an 804, so I 'accidentally' key in 803.926.421.

Pretty ordinary.

I should point out that this is the basis of several magic tricks. Nobody picks 'a random number'. The majority of people, when asked to choose a number between 1 and 10, chose 7 or 3. Some choose 5. You can bet on it.

Likewise, teachers get into a groove with quizzes: TFTTFTTFFTFT is a quite dependable opening.

What's your favourite vegetable? Carrot, right?

And so on.

 

[ynot]

Ok, I just did something that freaked me out a bit.

I work as a Financial Specialist for a bank. My job consists of creating a record of the client's personal information and suggesting accounts to open for them. I just dealt with a client who was attempting to commit fraud by opening up an account with a false Social Security number.

I wrote his SSN down as he gave it to me on a piece of paper. However, I keyed it in to our system as a different number by accident. When I attempted to pull up a copy of his credit report, I noticed that I had keyed it in improperly. So, I changed it before I pulled the report. When I pulled it, of course I found that the number had never been issued by the Social Security Administration.

Now, for some reason, I decided to run it again with the number I miskeyed. I have no idea why I decided to do this... Anyway, when I pulled it with the number I keyed, it actually pulled the record of the person the client claimed to be. Which is when I freaked out a bit.

I know that Social Security Numbers start with the same number sequence for certain regions of the country. But, I couldn't tell you what number corresponded to what area. However, do you think it may be possible that subconsciously my brain corrected the Social Security Number even though consciously I don't keep track of these patterns? It certainly seems to be that the odds are against me accidently choosing the correct Social Security Number for that specific person, yes it definately was the same name, and the customer repeated the bogus SSN after I pulled both reports.

We all experience millions of events every day. Most of them are “insignificant” and we are hardly even aware them. From time to time we experience an event that seems to be “significant” or “freaky” because the odds of it happening are very remote. One in millions every so often however is not remote. Given the amount of experiences we have, it is inevitable that from time to time one will be “freaky”. What a shame you weren’t buying a lotto ticket!

 

[Dogdoctor]

I have little doubt that the subconscious mind has great capabilities but also it is unreliable. Not sure how this translates to subconscious mind acting rather than a mistake and coincidence.

 

[blutoski]

I have little doubt that the subconscious mind has great capabilities but also it is unreliable. Not sure how this translates to subconscious mind acting rather than a mistake and coincidence.

In this case, I'd say a coincidence. However, there is good research on the role of unconscious data processing among psychologists, neurologists, physiologists, and the like.

I read Blink, which was interesting.

 

[Pup]

I was born in one area, grew up in another, and have now returned to the area where I was born, so I seem like a local, but when I was assigned my social security number, I was living away. So the first digit is from that area, and is different from "everybody else's" around here. I've actually had people argue with me that the first digit of my social security number is wrong.

So I'd think that people who deal with lots of social security numbers could get a feel for what the expected first digit should be and pick up on certain clues, like people with northeast accents will have zeros and people with midwestern accents will have twos, or whatever.

 

[bob_kark]

Well, if you're off by one digit, there's a 10% chance you'd get it right. Sounds like the applicant just changed one digit.

Also: is one digit more common in that position?

eg: did you naturally put a 'normal' first digit there? That would increase the odds.


I used to work in a similar role, and this happened sometimes:

There's a MOD10 check, so all baby boomers start with 803.
victim's SIN: 803.926.421
fake SIN: 804.926.421

I'm used to keying in 803, and have never keyed in an 804, so I 'accidentally' key in 803.926.421.

Pretty ordinary.

I think you're still making the mistake that I had a 10% chance in correcting the number. First of all, that's assuming I knew which number to correct and was actually attempting to do so. However, I was just trying to copy the number from a piece of paper into my computer. I wasn't attempting to change the number and I certainly didn't know which number to change. I definitely do agree however that it certainly could have just been an occurrence where I simply beat the odds without even trying.

I should also point out that a SSN isn't as straight forward as an area code for a telephone number. I could pick out area codes fairly easily. However, SSNs often are sequential based upon the area of birth. The number he gave me actually was never issued by the Social Security Administration. Anyway, I'm prepared to assume it was just an odd occurrence unless anyone believes otherwise.

 

[Moochie]

Ok, I just did something that freaked me out a bit.

I work as a Financial Specialist for a bank. My job consists of creating a record of the client's personal information and suggesting accounts to open for them. I just dealt with a client who was attempting to commit fraud by opening up an account with a false Social Security number.

I wrote his SSN down as he gave it to me on a piece of paper. However, I keyed it in to our system as a different number by accident. When I attempted to pull up a copy of his credit report, I noticed that I had keyed it in improperly. So, I changed it before I pulled the report. When I pulled it, of course I found that the number had never been issued by the Social Security Administration.

Now, for some reason, I decided to run it again with the number I miskeyed. I have no idea why I decided to do this... Anyway, when I pulled it with the number I keyed, it actually pulled the record of the person the client claimed to be. Which is when I freaked out a bit.

I know that Social Security Numbers start with the same number sequence for certain regions of the country. But, I couldn't tell you what number corresponded to what area. However, do you think it may be possible that subconsciously my brain corrected the Social Security Number even though consciously I don't keep track of these patterns? It certainly seems to be that the odds are against me accidently choosing the correct Social Security Number for that specific person, yes it definately was the same name, and the customer repeated the bogus SSN after I pulled both reports.

Where is the evidence for a "subconscious mind"?

Forgetfulness can be a blessing or a curse -- it often depends on how important you rank your livelihood in the scheme of things.

My partner, who works in the finance industry, often has experiences like this.

M.

 

[Soapy Sam]

If by " subconscious mind" you mean what I do- ie processes in the brain which can return values (data / filtered sense impressions etc.,) to conscious awareness, then I suggest the evidence is abundant and obvious to introspection.

Where do our likes, dislikes, impulses, ideas come from, if not as output from processes of which we are not aware. There seem to be three possibilities:-
1. They come spontaneously and instantaneously into being in consciousness, having neither prehistory nor cause. (It's quantum).
2. They are external, arriving in our awareness from some outside source. (Godditit).
3. They are the end result of a series of neural process, which consists in part of filtering and chunking of data from sense and memory.

I'm for option 3. If you mean where is the evidence in Bob_Fark's story, I'm not sure there is much except that others say working with these numbers is subject to certain unconscious pattern recognition. Bob's "error" is one his experience biased him towards, though he was unaware of this. Some people , experiencing the same thing , might put a "woo" interpretation on it.
I suspect a lot of "paranormal" events involve data we have, but are not aware of- unfortunately the real effect gets lost in the silliness.

 

[UserGoogol]

It's possible, also, that simply your brain has a weird tendency to make a mistake which if you do it twice it cancels out. Like replacing fours with sixes and vica versa.