Near-death experiences!

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Do you have some evidence of that claim?

People who've had cardiac arrests. I do believe I mentionned my uncle. My mother's had one as well. Complete blank.

Frankly, I believe that you believe what you write.

Please offer more evidence for others who are reading this exchange.

I believe I can offer evidence that there are some people who do vehemently reject God.
Can you provide evidence that "no one rejects God?"

No, because it is painfully clear that some people do.

Now back to the original point (I will repeat the scenario; now, and forever, until answered):

No one rejects God. You either believe or you don't.
I believe I can offer evidence that there are some people who do vehemently reject God.

Can you provide evidence that "no one rejects God?"

What's your definition of "oblivion."

Nothingness, as far as the mind is concerned.

Thank you.

I agree.
 
People who've had cardiac arrests. I do believe I mentionned my uncle. My mother's had one as well. Complete blank.
Sorry Belz, but that's anecdote, and only proves that your Uncle and Mother didn't have NDEs, not that it's impossible.
 
Well, like you point out, all NDE testimony isn't all pansies and fluff.

Still, why should we care what path their lives took AFTER the event ? Did they buy a Saturn, or a Toyota ? I'm just point out that the classical example of NDEs is not the only one.

But rejecting the evidence isn't good skepticism, is it?

My mistake. Let me rephrase that: Rejecting his existence is not the same as rejecting Him.

And if you reject Him, even though He might exist, means you choose to do so.

Same thing for Allah, Zeus, Brahman, Quetzalcoatl and Frodo Baggins.
 
Please offer more evidence for others who are reading this exchange.

No heart activity = no brain activity. I can't prove a negative. Why don't YOU provide examples of people with complete cardiac arrest who've experienced NDEs DURING cardiac arrest ?

No, because it is painfully clear that some people do.

Now back to the original point (I will repeat the scenario; now, and forever, until answered):

In your effort to over-quote you've apparently missed my answer:

"People who believe he exists and yet reject him ?"
 
Sorry Belz, but that's anecdote, and only proves that your Uncle and Mother didn't have NDEs, not that it's impossible.

It was an example. If you want me to seek out everybody who's had cardiac arrest and ask them, I'd advise you to not hold your breath,.

Of course, I assume that's not what you wanted. ;)
 
In order to reject God, you would have to believe He exists and yet defy his authority.

ETA (I see Belz already has this covered).

Wouldn't Satanists be people who believe in god, yet reject him? Not reject as in disbelieve, reject is in choose not to follow and, in fact, follow the opposite path.
 
In order to reject God, you would have to believe He exists and yet defy his authority.

ETA (I see Belz already has this covered).

I went to school with a guy who rejected God. He fully believed that 'he' existed, and created everything and all that. He hated God.

He hated God for giving him free will, but determining he should be punished for using it. He hated God for giving him the ability to make judgements and opinions on matters, but promising to damn him if he didn't see things the exact same way that God did. He hated God for allowing evil things to happen. He rejected Satan also, and believed he was right to choose his own path according to that free will and ability to judge that he had been granted. He was angry that he would face punishment for questioning God's plans.

He believed many people should be granted access to Heaven based on their deeds, and hated God for denying them that, while allowing evil people to make a last minute claim to redemption.

Some of the most interesting conversations I ever had at school.
 
Huntster,

I'll sum up for now - I don't think a fragmented conversation will bring a clearer view of your beliefs.

I'm not in denial, as you claim, because I argue a political or social point-of-view. I don't think that skepticism can be used to determine whether we should have guns or not. We can apply critical thinking in how we evaluate the evidence, but what we ultimately decide is not something that can be determined by science alone. Take vaccinations. They save lives. That's a fact. But the decision to vaccinate the population is not dictated by science - it is determined by people.

We can, however, apply critical thinking to paranormal beliefs, such as your own, and determine what is happening. As provisional as the answer may be, we can reach a conclusion. And the conclusion is: There is no god, not yours, not anybody elses. If there is, show me the evidence. But don't ask me to believe, just to believe.

You choose to believe, and that seems to be the merit for your belief. However, I don't think you are very happy in your belief. I looks to me as if you have chosen religion as a response - not a solution - to your problems, but it doesn't seem to give you any happiness, or even hope. What it gives you is some form of stamp of approval for you to come here and mock other posters. I don't find that a very nice reason, and it reflects poorly on yourself. It certainly takes the wind out of your statement that we should all be better. Sweep before your own doorstep first.

You believe in an afterlife partly because of nameless people's unverifiable accounts of NDEs - that there is something after death. You see your god when you are alone with animals, but not when around people - unless they share your beliefs.

It is often said that skeptics must lead a dreary life, because they have no hope. But what is this hope that religious people have? Possible salvation for themselves (and that's a big IF), but eternal damnation for all others. Is that hope? It sounds more like childish glee to me. And, as we see in Beirut today, religion is still being used to fight wars for a very long time.

I don't reject god, because, as is pointed out, I would have to believe that he existed before I could reject him. But I don't see any reason to believe. The hope I have is in the real world, because that's where I live. My hope is pinned on something verifiable, and something that gives me immense hope for the future. Sure, it may not tell me what happens after I'm dead, but then, I'm not all that interested anyway. I'll be dead, you know. But what science does tell me is that our future looks pretty bright. We take giant steps every day in improving our lives, and expanding our knowledge of what really goes on in the world.

Religion? That's stale, narrowminded dogma, used to validate inflicting pain on others. I take science any day.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster :
Well, like you point out, all NDE testimony isn't all pansies and fluff.

Still, why should we care what path their lives took AFTER the event ?

If their life before the NDE was wicked, their NDE was unpleasant, and they returned to a reformed life of sacrifice and goodness, I would think we would be well advised to take notice.

But rejecting the evidence isn't good skepticism, is it?

My mistake. Let me rephrase that: Rejecting his existence is not the same as rejecting Him.

How can that be?
 
Wouldn't Satanists be people who believe in god, yet reject him? Not reject as in disbelieve, reject is in choose not to follow and, in fact, follow the opposite path.
Exactly. Problem is, it's hard to find a real Satanist. A bunch of kids pretend it is cool to thumb their nose at religion and claim to be Satanists because it makes adults crazy.

I know hundreds of Pagans who worship almost as many gods, but not a single one I know includes Satan in their pantheon.
 
Exactly. Problem is, it's hard to find a real Satanist. A bunch of kids pretend it is cool to thumb their nose at religion and claim to be Satanists because it makes adults crazy.

I know hundreds of Pagans who worship almost as many gods, but not a single one I know includes Satan in their pantheon.
Could we get a proclaimed Satanist to argue his/her case here?

Hmmm....
 
......I don't think you are very happy in your belief. I looks to me as if you have chosen religion as a response - not a solution - to your problems, but it doesn't seem to give you any happiness, or even hope. What it gives you is some form of stamp of approval for you to come here and mock other posters....

So, I was born and raised Catholic, and accepted this faith as an adult, and raised my children in the Church, all in order to manifest my destiny here on this forum?

Quite a theory.

Is that "science?"

You believe in an afterlife partly because of nameless people's unverifiable accounts of NDEs - that there is something after death.

No, but I see NDEs as valid testimony that an afterlife is as it is described religiously.

You see your god when you are alone with animals, but not when around people - unless they share your beliefs.

I most certainly do see God in others, whether or not they share my beliefs.

It is often said that skeptics must lead a dreary life, because they have no hope. But what is this hope that religious people have? Possible salvation for themselves (and that's a big IF), but eternal damnation for all others. Is that hope?

That's not how I see it. I see it simply as becoming one with God and the blessed.

It sounds more like childish glee to me.

At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:1-4

And, as we see in Beirut today, religion is still being used to fight wars for a very long time.

That's right. It is used by evil men to perpetrate evil.

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!


Matthew 18:6-7

I don't reject god, because, as is pointed out, I would have to believe that he existed before I could reject him.
By refusing to believe, you have rejected.

The hope I have is in the real world, because that's where I live.

That's right. You live physically, and reject the spirit. Therefore, you shall not live spiritually.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster :

What science cannot do yet is give us an explanation of phenomena beyond the natural world.
That's because science only deals with reality.

Yeah. Right.

The image of Al Gore comes to mind, along with the "reality" of human-caused global warming.

Reality. Right.

Go have a beer with your buddy, Kenny (see sig line below......................)
 
The funny thing is, Huntster, what I said is true. Science only deals with things that are real. "Beyond the natural world" is synonymous to fiction. Gods do not exist and sasquatches don't either.
 

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