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Weakened support of Hezbollah?

Dustin said:
No...If the lebanese army was sent to attack Hezbollah..There is a good chance they would trade sides since over 60% of the Lebanese army are shiite muslims. The prime minister was afraid of some kind of a backfire. He was living peacefully alongside Hezbollah for many years and they were providing many social services. Right now however Israel is much more of a threat than hezbollah so the Prime minister will likely send his troops in support of Hezbollah to atleast defend Lebanese civilians.
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So the army would defect to Hezbollah? Right? The prime minister was afraid of a coup, and Hezbollah would be the government of Lebanon.

Like I said you guys were screwed either way.
 
dustin makes up facts again
Israel targeted a truckload of children traveling alongside a road trying to get away from towns being bombed. 13 children died in that one instance. They are now talking about starting a humanatrian charge against Israel.
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Who is 'they'?

The details, AFAIK, are completely different than what you present here.

Although I hesitate to provide Ha'aretz (an Israeli newspaper) as a valid source to you Dustin, let's just go with it...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738611.html
An IAF missile wrecked a van near the southern port of Tyre, killing 15 passengers and wounding six, police said.

OK, lets' try this report, see if it fits your narrative ---
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4058978?source=rss
By Sam F. Ghattas (Associated Press)
  • Fleeing refugees, including women and children, were cut down on a road adjacent to the Lebanese-Israeli border in an airstrike as they left the village of Marwaheen, Lebanon. The bodies of several children, one headless, were sprawled on the ground. At least 12 died.

And lastly ---
from alJazeera (why not, good as anything else)
Throughout Wednesday, Israel pressed on with a wave of attacks from air and sea against southern and eastern Lebanon, flattening houses, destroying roads and hitting trucks, Lebanon's police said.

So, I do not see anything out of the ordinary about the destruction of the van on that border road leading out of Marwaheen. The IAF looked at it as a legitimate target of Hezbollah transporting weapons/rockets. It wasn't marked by a white flag, or anything distinctive (maybe flourescent paint?) and in a war zone, which that certainly was on the day in question, those people might have seriously considered getting a police escort for that van.
Or they already had a Hezbollah escort maybe?
 
Dustin said:
If you would have been paying attention to the news you would not think they're so retarded. Israel targed a truckload of children traveling alongside a road trying to get away from towns being bombed. 13 children died in that one instance. They are now talking about starting a humanatrian charge against Israel.
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Evidence that a) this occured...not that I disagree but according to another poster your facts aren't quite straight, and b) that they targeted it knowing they were targeting children.

Are you claiming the IDF deliberately targets children?
 
DreadNiK said:
Are you claiming the IDF deliberately targets children?
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The IDF is targeting at random. They don't know what to hit so they decided to hit at random. Hence the number of dead children reflects the number of children in general.


webfusion said:
That number is a fabrication.
I am quite sure that the IDF has targeted and killed over 200 Hezbollah combatants from that 300+ total, and the remaining 100 or so other fatalities are collateral to that.
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When all else fails, resort to making up the news yourself!

Every news agency on the planet is wrong or lying. Webfusion knows the truth!

More likely explanation of the mission:

IAF destroyed 9 Hezbollah members who were sleeping in this building, and 2 of their family became collateral fatalties.
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Invent delusions.
Israeli intelligence is so great it can predict which buildings have Hezbollah sleeping in them. But so lousy it can't tell when or where to make incursions in the south. They're on their third attempt.

They can't tell whether Hezbollah's ability to resist is diminished, but they can know where Hezbollah sleep.

You're mad.

The IAF looked at it as a legitimate target of Hezbollah transporting weapons/rockets. It wasn't marked by a white flag, or anything distinctive (maybe flourescent paint?) and in a war zone, which that certainly was on the day in question, those people might have seriously considered getting a police escort for that van.
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Insane.

If it had a white flag, you'd say "But Hezbollah use white flags too so that means nothing."

You don't have a leg to stand on.
 
FireGarden said:
The IDF is targeting at random. They don't know what to hit so they decided to hit at random. Hence the number of dead children reflects the number of children in general.
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Well, I was asking Dustin a question, not you, and you haven't even answered the question. But since you decided to say something to me:

What does the last sentence mean? It makes no sense to me...'number dead = number in general?'

Evidence the IDF is targeting at random?

Evidence that they don't know what to hit?
 
FireGarden said:
The IDF is targeting at random. They don't know what to hit so they decided to hit at random.
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Lie.

The Israel Air Force bombed more than 40 Hezbollah targets in Lebanon before dawn Friday, Israel Radio reported. The targets included Hezbollah buildings and rocket launchers.
The IAF carried out more than 150 sorties throughout Lebanon on Thursday. Six launchers were destroyed and 16 Hezbollah bases as well as three arms storage facilities were bombed. The air assault destroyed 21 Hezbollah vehicles and included attacks on 100 bridges and roads throughout Lebanon.


When all else fails, resort to making up the news yourself!
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New clashes Thursday took place at the outskirts of the village of Maroun Ras in the central sector of the border area, just north of Moshav Avivim. This battle raged for hours, and the soldiers managed to hit dozens of Hezbollah fighters who launched anti-tank weapons, both of Soviet and European origin, and used heavy machine guns.

Hezbollah did not admit it suffered any casualties in the fighting.

However, 73 additional 'innocent civilians' were added to the statistics of dead in Lebanon after this firefight and after the extensive pinpoint IAF raids. Odd.

Every news agency on the planet is wrong or lying. Webfusion knows the truth!
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I don't know the truth, and neither do you, and neither do the news organizations, who are being lied to by a sophisticated organization which is doing a very good job of hiding the accurate numbers from everyone, and padding the statistics to show high civilian deaths, and NO combatant deaths. According to the media, not one Hezbollah militant has died among the 300+ fatalities. Does that sound right to you?
Now, while I readily admit that the random number I poised is not based on any solid information, I'll bet my last buck that my made-up number is closer to the truth than the 300+ being all innocent civilians!

Invent delusions.
Israeli intelligence is so great it can predict which buildings have Hezbollah sleeping in them. But so lousy it can't tell when or where to make incursions in the south. They're on their third attempt.
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Predict? They have maps drawn for them by their spies. There are old accounts to be settled in those villages, and Israeli intelligence has no shortage of South Lebanese willing to reveal addresses and even bedroom locations of Hezbollah men.

As for the incursions, that's a slightly different kettle of fish.
The IDF has called up an additional three divisions, since the terrain and the resistance is making for a tough operation against good fortifications and ambushes. This is the kind of thing that 'snitches' and 'spies' (intelligence) are not useful in helping with, honestly. You just have to plow ahead and knock 'em back.


You're mad.
Insane.
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Please FireGarden, limit your remarks to the issues, and do not personalize this discussion. That is a common courtesy that applies on JREF, and I expect you to follow that protocol, as we are all bound to.

If it had a white flag, you'd say "But Hezbollah use white flags too so that means nothing."
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Hezbollah uses Yellow flags, as you certainly must know.
http://www.onpointradio.org/content/2002/10/30/1030hez140.jpg

You don't have a leg to stand on.
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I'll stand by the IDF and see them win, thanks.
And the soldiers who are being held hostage will be returned.
 
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Dustin said:
This has been explained over a dozen times. Most of The lebanese Army are Shiite muslims. The lebanese prime minister said that if he ordered them to go after Hezbollah, He was afraid of what would of happened.
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So, in other words, the Lebanese Army is Hizbullah's ally?

So what's the problem with israel attacking it, exactly?
 
DreadNiK said:
What does the last sentence mean? It makes no sense to me...'number dead = number in general?'
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It means that if you pick Lebanese civilians at random, almost a third of them will be children. Almost a third of those killed by Israel are children.

That is the analysis of the UN.
It is backed up by bodies in refrigerated trucks, which I have seen on the BBC.

Israel's killing gives the same stats as random killing. Not surprising since they don't seem to have accurate info on what Hizbollah are up to or where they are. How many times have they said they've killed Nassrullah? They've been wrong every time.

They kill on the roads, they blow up houses merely because they're in the same country as their enemy.

Their results are random. Or as bad as, anyway.
 
Dustin said:
No...If the lebanese army was sent to attack Hezbollah..There is a good chance they would trade sides since over 60% of the Lebanese army are shiite muslims. The prime minister was afraid of some kind of a backfire. He was living peacefully alongside Hezbollah for many years and they were providing many social services. Right now however Israel is much more of a threat than hezbollah so the Prime minister will likely send his troops in support of Hezbollah to atleast defend Lebanese civilians.
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So in most of your previous posts you explain how the hezbo and the lebanese army have nothing to do with each other and should not be shared in the targeting, then you say 60% of them would trade sides? And it's ok that they have terrorist...err....guerillas...err....freedom fighters....scumbags operating in the country, because they provide social services? Sounds more like a payoff to the government and people to commit crimes and they took the bribe.
 
Weakened support of Hezbollah?

No more so than Monday through Friday. What an odd question. ;)
 
FireGarden said:
It means that if you pick Lebanese civilians at random, almost a third of them will be children. Almost a third of those killed by Israel are children.

That is the analysis of the UN.
It is backed up by bodies in refrigerated trucks, which I have seen on the BBC.

Israel's killing gives the same stats as random killing. Not surprising since they don't seem to have accurate info on what Hizbollah are up to or where they are. How many times have they said they've killed Nassrullah? They've been wrong every time.

They kill on the roads, they blow up houses merely because they're in the same country as their enemy.

Their results are random. Or as bad as, anyway.
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That's odd...you wouldn't expect collateral damage to be distributed randomly...

I find it odd you expect Israel to provide you with their intel on Hizbollah. I also find it odd you expect Hizbollah to admit to casualties. Although personally, I need to do some news reading regarding this.
 
DreadNiK said:
I also find it odd you expect Hizbollah to admit to casualties.
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After 10 days of aerial and artillery bombardment Hezbollah must have lost quite a few people.

It's funny but the media and the Lebanese government do not distinguish between Hezbollah militants killed and "Lebanese" killed, all that is commonly published is the statistic for "Lebanese" killed.
 
zenith-nadir said:
After 10 days of aerial and artillery bombardment Hezbollah must have lost quite a few people.

It's funny but the media and the Lebanese government do not distinguish between Hezbollah militants killed and "Lebanese" killed, all that is commonly published is the statistic for "Lebanese" killed.
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Not to mention how thousands and thousands of foreigners are migrating out without being "targeted". They must know not to stand near hezbollah.
 
Finally

DreadNiK said:
I find it odd you expect Israel to provide you with their intel on Hizbollah. I also find it odd you expect Hizbollah to admit to casualties. Although personally, I need to do some news reading regarding this.
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OK, here at last is the real deal:

IDF Chief of Staff Halutz has actually provided some raw data that we can extrapolate from.

He is now saying that according to military intelligence estimates, approximately 100 Hezbollah combatants have been eliminated since the start of Operation Just Rewards on July 12th.

That plus the 20-25 Lebanese Army regulars = 125.
The total being offered as of Friday was 345 all together.

Which leaves around 225 'innocent civilians' who were caught in the various ongoing bombardments, and did not survive this war.
1/3 of those apparently were unfortunate children (75).

According to UNICEF statistics, Lebanon has a 24.5 (per 1000) infant mortaility rate occuring ---
The population of Lebanon is approx. 3,950,000 individuals and thus
taking into consideration a 1.26% annual population growth rate, that means the population is going to expand by about a 50,000 over the coming year.
This statistical analysis provides us with 1200 babies dying naturally according to the infant mortaility rate.

Somehow, despite the emotional effect of the claim of the IDF committing mass atrocities, I don't see 75 young lives really being more than a single pixel on the larger overall picture of natural mortality in Lebanon.

In more simple terms, over 100 babies die each month of natural causes in the first year after childbirth in Lebanon.

It's just not in the headlines, because it's not a result of Israel being at war.
 
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That plus the 20-25 Lebanese Army regulars = 125.
The total being offered as of Friday was 345 all together.
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The UN knows how to count. They say most of the casualties are civilian. They are counting the bodies they have seen.
Bodies which are kept in trucks. And a third of the bodies were bodies of children.

And we're to believe IDF stats when they've killed Nasrullah but he's still alive. And injured him without leaving a mark on him.

Explain how the UN got their sums wrong.
 
Tailgater said:
So in most of your previous posts you explain how the hezbo and the lebanese army have nothing to do with each other and should not be shared in the targeting, then you say 60% of them would trade sides? And it's ok that they have terrorist...err....guerillas...err....freedom fighters....scumbags operating in the country, because they provide social services? Sounds more like a payoff to the government and people to commit crimes and they took the bribe.
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Furthermore, if the Lebanese government, with its army and police, were not in actual control of southern Lebanon, then were, defacto, not the government in that part of the country. This is the problem, of course, and why Israel has set as a condition of ceasing hostilities that Lebanon take control of this territory with its army. It's ironic that they are willing (so they say) to operate within Hezbollahstan when Israel threatens to invade, but not when the sub-government of Hezbollah is using that territory to draw them into a devastating war.

Very sad for them. Did Lebanon ever have a chance, after Syria withdrew, to evolve into a peaceful nation?
 
webfusion said:
I am quite sure that the IDF has targeted and killed over 200 Hezbollah combatants from that 300+ total, and the remaining 100 or so other fatalities are collateral to that.

Which is really a very small number, considering. I would bet that more than 100 die in road accidents along the Lebanese highways during the summer.
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I need to say that the IDF Chief of Staff is announcing that around 100 Hezbollah fatalities can be accounted for -- not 'over 200' as I was previously so sure of. Just to keep the record straight.
 
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