Near-death experiences!

[Belz...]

My point was that from the Bible we have information about death.... by the way stoning was judgement of old covenant. In the New Covenant you can't stone anybody ........

No, but you have to hate your parents.

 

[Belz...]

Got your "facts" straight?:

Nah, sorry. People who experience cardiac arrest don't have NDEs, they just shut down completely. I've got an uncle who had that after his heart attack.

Old and New covenants are different..... Old covenant was written to the stone, not heart... so men didn't have power to control their flesh .... and God set up very strict methods, that His nation will walk after will of God...

But in New Covenant God has put the law in the Holy Spirit to heart of His people ....and by that way they can control themseleves in the Holy Spirit.. and there don't need to be any stoning judgement ...

Okay, that's nice.

Please dont jump into a conversation between two people. Read whats going on and then you'll see how stupid you sound.

As far as we know, your brain starts to deteriorate seriously after something like 5 minutes, so 28 minutes is a bit hard to swallow, I'm sure you'll understand.

 

[Belz...]

There really is no way to prove whether or not he is authentic. The same goes for anyone that has an OBE or NDE. Lets say I told my friend that I had a dream that my neighbors house burned down, and he replied 'prove it'. There really is no way for someone to prove it, which is why I understand how many people can be skeptical.

Actually, he could prove it by providing his medical record.

I guess this proves me right.

Of course. When someone decides to ignore me, it makes ME right as well!

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Skeptic:

And why am I not a skeptic, according to that?

There's a difference between reasoned doubt and blanket rejection.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Who says that I do?
...

By the fruits of the works.

How so? Others can be fooled by the devil, but not you?

Absolutely not. I am sucked in by evil regularly.

What makes you so much more holy?

Not only am I not more holy than others, I am more evil than many.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I don't know.

That's not a satisfactory reply. It looks very much to me like you are trying to avoid learning about astrology, so you won't have to think about why you don't believe in it.

Not at all. In fact, I've always found it interesting that people like Nostradamus and other prophets studied and knew of some form of astrology.

I just don't have the time or inclination to invest in such study. I've got visitors coming next month, I've got at least three hunts to prepare for and consumate, equipment to work on, a home improvement project I've got to support, etc.

Learning about astrology is way down on my list. So far down I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Kinda, sorta. God is Heaven.

If you say so.

That's the way I understand it.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yes, I am.

I find that sad. You really view the world with innate suspicion?

Yup. Got good reason, too.

And it's damned sad.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I don't know.

So why choose religion?

Because it makes sense to me, and I find no reason to reject it.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Oh, well.

Aren't you the least bit worried that people find your treatment of people who don't share your beliefs condescending?

Nope.

Do you treat everyone who don't share your beliefs this way?

I'm not sure. I definately do if I feel condescension from them.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
That's also why some people might not want to bother with you.

Yeah. I'll find a way to live with that. But, contrary to you, I don't base my argument on a blind belief that I am right. I argue my case, I show evidence.

I have based my argument on a reasoned belief, and it is right for me. You believe that if physical evidence isn't available, it is not worthy to consider (at least, that is how I understand your position).

I have accepted the liklihood that there may not be such evidence available for all things, especially things for which I have reason to believe aren't even physical.Therefore, depending on the phenomena, I might choose to believe, since full knowledge may not be available.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Of course not. It is understood my millions of others.

Is it? How can you be sure that your god is exactly the same as their god?

It is highly likely that my understanding of God is not going to be identical to others. And that's fine. My understanding of many other things differ as well. Why not differing understandings of God, especially since there is no concrete evidence of Him and His full nature?

Isn't the experience of god inherently a solitary experience?

It certainly can be. More often, though, (for me) it is a group experience. When at Mass with my neighbors, celebrating Eucharist, praying together for mercy and forgiveness, contemplating readings from the Bible, exchanging greetings of joy and good will, I feel it intimately.

I also feel it intimately when alone in the wilderness, especially if I'm out there alone for a longer period of time. Like the example of Christ in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights, and the Buddhist hermits in the cave in the mountains, when you tune the world out, it is much easier to tune God in. In fact, I have noticed that it can start in as few as three or four days; no human company, no radio, no CD players, no road noise, no human interruption whatsoever. You will begin to "hear things" (no, not "little voices", but you will notice things that escaped your attention while you were distracted).

This phenomena is directly in line with the religious theory that the spirit has three enemies: the world, the flesh, and the Evil One. Of the three, the world is easiest to overcome. You can simply leave.

I can never know exactly what you feel like, when you meet/feel/see/touch your god?

Free. Hopeful. Comforted. Joyful. Peaceful. Loved. All the same things that people who have experienced in near-death events claim to feel. And all while still healthy and not in physical crisis.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
But not you. And it is unlikely that you will accept it, regardless what words are used to explain how others understand it.

I don't have any reason to accept it. E.g., I have never seen any evidence of a supernatural phenomenon. Why should I merely believe?

Because physical evidence will likely not be available, and rejection will result in lost opportunity.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
It's also the only way one is likely to get "proof" of an afterlife, if you're unwilling to accept the testimony of people who have died and returned.

Who have "died and returned"? Names, please.

Try these.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Human.

Like them.

I am human, too, and - according to you, dripping with sin even more than you.

Claus, I've specifically noted my proficient sinfulness, and have specifically avoided judging your sins.

I am not the judge.

Does that make me better at steering people towards their salvation?

Maybe. All I know is that I'm a poor example of "steering" people toward anything. And my life's experience has taught me that people need to learn themselves.

Some will learn, and some will not. Period.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yup.

I'm not a Viking. You are.

I know thunder and lightning to be perfectly natural phenomena.

You do now, yes. But if you were a Viking then, and didn't know what you know today, wouldn't you also have thought that thunder and lightning were the works of Thor?

Yup. So?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
And what is that?

Science gives us an explanation of the natural world, based on natural laws.

And that is just great.

What science cannot do yet is give us an explanation of phenomena beyond the natural world.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Got your "facts" straight?:

Nah, sorry. People who experience cardiac arrest don't have NDEs, they just shut down completely. I've got an uncle who had that after his heart attack.

By that do you mean that all people who suffer cardiac arrest don't reawaken with a NDE story, or that not all people who suffer cardiac arrest reawaken with a NDE story?

 

[CFLarsen]

There's a difference between reasoned doubt and blanket rejection.

That's not an explanation, but a repetition of your claim. Explain why I am not a skeptic.

Absolutely not. I am sucked in by evil regularly.

There you go: You are incapable of distinguishing between the works of the devil and the works of god. How, then, do you know god exists? Could it not be the devil, fooling you?

Not only am I not more holy than others, I am more evil than many.

And that makes you qualified to steer people towards your god? That's ludicrous.

Not at all. In fact, I've always found it interesting that people like Nostradamus and other prophets studied and knew of some form of astrology.

I just don't have the time or inclination to invest in such study. I've got visitors coming next month, I've got at least three hunts to prepare for and consumate, equipment to work on, a home improvement project I've got to support, etc.

Learning about astrology is way down on my list. So far down I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

We can pick any other paranormal subject. What paranormal phenomenon do you know about?

That's the way I understand it.

But until you die, you can not know.

Yup. Got good reason, too.

And it's damned sad.

Hardly a good starting point for saving other people.

Because it makes sense to me, and I find no reason to reject it.

Is that how you view things? If there is no reason to reject it, then you'll believe it?

Nope.

Why not? Shouldn't you, according to your faith, strive to be a good person?

I'm not sure. I definately do if I feel condescension from them.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Ever heard of turning the other cheek? It sounds more and more to me that you don't claim faith because you feel close to your god, but because you want an excuse to get back at the world.

I have based my argument on a reasoned belief, and it is right for me. You believe that if physical evidence isn't available, it is not worthy to consider (at least, that is how I understand your position).

Correct.

I have accepted the liklihood that there may not be such evidence available for all things, especially things for which I have reason to believe aren't even physical.Therefore, depending on the phenomena, I might choose to believe, since full knowledge may not be available.

Then, you have not applied reason, but pure faith. Why are you so dead-set against believing without reason?

It is highly likely that my understanding of God is not going to be identical to others. And that's fine. My understanding of many other things differ as well. Why not differing understandings of God, especially since there is no concrete evidence of Him and His full nature?

But then you cannot possibly claim that you are worshipping the same god as others.

It certainly can be. More often, though, (for me) it is a group experience. When at Mass with my neighbors, celebrating Eucharist, praying together for mercy and forgiveness, contemplating readings from the Bible, exchanging greetings of joy and good will, I feel it intimately.

Ever heard of mass-induced hallucinations?

I also feel it intimately when alone in the wilderness, especially if I'm out there alone for a longer period of time. Like the example of Christ in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights, and the Buddhist hermits in the cave in the mountains, when you tune the world out, it is much easier to tune God in. In fact, I have noticed that it can start in as few as three or four days; no human company, no radio, no CD players, no road noise, no human interruption whatsoever. You will begin to "hear things" (no, not "little voices", but you will notice things that escaped your attention while you were distracted).

This phenomena is directly in line with the religious theory that the spirit has three enemies: the world, the flesh, and the Evil One. Of the three, the world is easiest to overcome. You can simply leave.

What, exactly, is it you start noticing?

Free. Hopeful. Comforted. Joyful. Peaceful. Loved. All the same things that people who have experienced in near-death events claim to feel. And all while still healthy and not in physical crisis.

People feel all those things after having sex. Why is that an indication of the existence of a supernatural being?

Because physical evidence will likely not be available, and rejection will result in lost opportunity.

Yeah, yeah, Pascal's Wager. Sorry, but I prefer the real world.

Try these.

You are kidding, right? You take these people's word for granted? People you have no idea whose identity is. Stories you have no way of verifying.

Could all of these accounts not be invented by one single person?

Claus, I've specifically noted my proficient sinfulness, and have specifically avoided judging your sins.

I am not the judge.

I am not saying that you judge me. I am saying that, by your definition, I should be better at steering people towards their salvation, since I am more sinful than you.

Maybe. All I know is that I'm a poor example of "steering" people toward anything. And my life's experience has taught me that people need to learn themselves.

Some will learn, and some will not. Period.

You are not a Christian when you say that. Christians have an obligation to spread the word of God, to get converts.

Yup. So?

There you go: There can be physical evidence of a supernatural thing. It is only supernatural because you (as a Viking) don't understand what is happening.

And that is just great.

What science cannot do yet is give us an explanation of phenomena beyond the natural world.

Show me just one phenomenon that is beyond the natural world.

Just one.

 

[Belz...]

You will reject any evidence presented, so why bother?

A rather useless starting assumption when taking part in a debate, wouldn't you agree ?

Absolutely not, but I have been amazed at how He has answered me.

Some people have been amazed how many times they were abduded by aliens. Of course, that doesn't mean they have been.

He was "not able." The footnote to that verse in the RCC New American Bible states:

Sounds like Uri Geller when in the skeptic's presence. Cannot perform.

Its in the book. The one you refuse to look out because it goes against everything you believe.

Well, if the BOOK says it!!

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
There's a difference between reasoned doubt and blanket rejection.

That's not an explanation, but a repetition of your claim. Explain why I am not a skeptic.

Oh, you're a skeptic all right. I think you cross the line to denial sometimes.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Absolutely not. I am sucked in by evil regularly.

There you go: You are incapable of distinguishing between the works of the devil and the works of god. How, then, do you know god exists? Could it not be the devil, fooling you?

It could be either, or it could be my own human weakness.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Not only am I not more holy than others, I am more evil than many.

And that makes you qualified to steer people towards your god? That's ludicrous.

Who said that I am "qualified to steer people towards" God?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Not at all. In fact, I've always found it interesting that people like Nostradamus and other prophets studied and knew of some form of astrology.

I just don't have the time or inclination to invest in such study. I've got visitors coming next month, I've got at least three hunts to prepare for and consumate, equipment to work on, a home improvement project I've got to support, etc.

Learning about astrology is way down on my list. So far down I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

We can pick any other paranormal subject. What paranormal phenomenon do you know about?

Religion.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
That's the way I understand it.

But until you die, you can not know.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yup. Got good reason, too.

And it's damned sad.

Hardly a good starting point for saving other people.

I can't save other people. I can't even save myself.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Because it makes sense to me, and I find no reason to reject it.

Is that how you view things? If there is no reason to reject it, then you'll believe it?

If I reason that a phenomena has merit, and there is no compelling reason to reject it, I have the option to believe it or not.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Nope.

Why not? Shouldn't you, according to your faith, strive to be a good person?

Yup.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I'm not sure. I definately do if I feel condescension from them.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Ever heard of turning the other cheek?

Yup.

It sounds more and more to me that you don't claim faith because you feel close to your god, but because you want an excuse to get back at the world.

I don't want or need "an excuse to get back at the world." I chose to try to escape from the world, and to some measure, I succeeded. That's good enough for me.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I have accepted the liklihood that there may not be such evidence available for all things, especially things for which I have reason to believe aren't even physical.Therefore, depending on the phenomena, I might choose to believe, since full knowledge may not be available.

Then, you have not applied reason, but pure faith.

Incorrect. I have applied reason, then faith.

Why are you so dead-set against believing without reason?

If I believed without reason, I'd believe that David Copperfield can levitate elephants.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
It is highly likely that my understanding of God is not going to be identical to others. And that's fine. My understanding of many other things differ as well. Why not differing understandings of God, especially since there is no concrete evidence of Him and His full nature?

But then you cannot possibly claim that you are worshipping the same god as others.

I cannot claim for certain that we are worshipping the same God as others. But I believe that is the case.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
It certainly can be. More often, though, (for me) it is a group experience. When at Mass with my neighbors, celebrating Eucharist, praying together for mercy and forgiveness, contemplating readings from the Bible, exchanging greetings of joy and good will, I feel it intimately.

Ever heard of mass-induced hallucinations?

Yup.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I also feel it intimately when alone in the wilderness, especially if I'm out there alone for a longer period of time. Like the example of Christ in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights, and the Buddhist hermits in the cave in the mountains, when you tune the world out, it is much easier to tune God in. In fact, I have noticed that it can start in as few as three or four days; no human company, no radio, no CD players, no road noise, no human interruption whatsoever. You will begin to "hear things" (no, not "little voices", but you will notice things that escaped your attention while you were distracted).

This phenomena is directly in line with the religious theory that the spirit has three enemies: the world, the flesh, and the Evil One. Of the three, the world is easiest to overcome. You can simply leave.

What, exactly, is it you start noticing?

An example is noticing wild animals communicating to and with me. Another might be noticing a sound that I realize I've heard many times, but never paid any attention to. Another is the constant and continual thought, contemplation, and prayer occurring in my mind without being interrupted by "human environmental noise."

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Free. Hopeful. Comforted. Joyful. Peaceful. Loved. All the same things that people who have experienced in near-death events claim to feel. And all while still healthy and not in physical crisis.

People feel all those things after having sex. Why is that an indication of the existence of a supernatural being?

Sex can be described as "becoming one with another":

And the two became one body

Prayer is described as becoming one in spirit with God.

Sex is physical, prayer is spiritual, both are becoming one with another.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Because physical evidence will likely not be available, and rejection will result in lost opportunity.

Yeah, yeah, Pascal's Wager. Sorry, but I prefer the real world.

Enjoy your real world.

I hear times are really "booming" in that seaport known as Beirut..............

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Try these.

You are kidding, right? You take these people's word for granted?

Nope. Nor do I reject them.

People you have no idea whose identity is. Stories you have no way of verifying.

Yup. No way of verifying, and no way of proving otherwise.

Go figure.

Could all of these accounts not be invented by one single person?

Might.

All NDE stories, published up to today, invented by one person?

Who's in the real world, and who's in Fantasyland, Claus?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Claus, I've specifically noted my proficient sinfulness, and have specifically avoided judging your sins.

I am not the judge.

I am not saying that you judge me. I am saying that, by your definition, I should be better at steering people towards their salvation, since I am more sinful than you.

Claus, who said that you are more sinful than I? Frankly, I'm sure I'm more sinful than you.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Maybe. All I know is that I'm a poor example of "steering" people toward anything. And my life's experience has taught me that people need to learn themselves.

Some will learn, and some will not. Period.

You are not a Christian when you say that. Christians have an obligation to spread the word of God, to get converts.

Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye.

Matthew 7:1-5

I've still got some serious lumber in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yup. So?

There you go: There can be physical evidence of a supernatural thing. It is only supernatural because you (as a Viking) don't understand what is happening.

No, there was physical evidence of a physical thing that the Vikings didn't understand, and attributed to the supernatural.

Now that we know better, we don't do that anymore.

That's the evolution of understanding.

Great stuff, huh?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
And that is just great.

What science cannot do yet is give us an explanation of phenomena beyond the natural world.

Show me just one phenomenon that is beyond the natural world.

I can't. If it is beyond the natural world, I don't have the power to show it to you.

 

[Belz...]

Since Hell is defined as "the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed, reserved for those who refuse by their own free choice to believe and be converted from sin, even to the end of their lives f you reject God", yes. If you reject God, you have demanded "self-exclusion." You get what you wish.

No you didn't. If you simply DON'T BELIEVE, you're not wishing for anything.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
You will reject any evidence presented, so why bother?

A rather useless starting assumption when taking part in a debate, wouldn't you agree ?

Yes.

But it's quite accurate, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Absolutely not, but I have been amazed at how He has answered me.

Some people have been amazed how many times they were abduded by aliens. Of course, that doesn't mean they have been.

Yup.

And it doesn't mean that they weren't, either.

He was "not able." The footnote to that verse in the RCC New American Bible states:

Sounds like Uri Geller when in the skeptic's presence. Cannot perform.

Amazing!

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Since Hell is defined as "the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed, reserved for those who refuse by their own free choice to believe and be converted from sin, even to the end of their lives f you reject God", yes. If you reject God, you have demanded "self-exclusion." You get what you wish.

No you didn't. If you simply DON'T BELIEVE, you're not wishing for anything.No you didn't. If you simply DON'T BELIEVE, you're not wishing for anything.

Let's read the words slowly:

reserved for those who refuse by their own free choice to believe

Refuse.

"I won't."

If you reject God, you will get want you want:

the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed

 

[CFLarsen]

Oh, you're a skeptic all right. I think you cross the line to denial sometimes.

Do point out where and when.

It could be either, or it could be my own human weakness.

And, yet, you choose to believe that it is your god who is responsible. Not much reason left, is there?

Who said that I am "qualified to steer people towards" God?

Aren't you trying to get people to convert?

Religion.

You have lost track, I see. I want you to pick a paranormal phenomenon other than religion, so we can see if your "reason" should compel you to believe in that phenomenon.

Any paranormal phenomenon. Clairvoyance? Dowsing? What do you know about?

Correct.

Why waste your life waiting for something that, in all probability, won't happen?

I can't save other people. I can't even save myself.

Ah, I see. You leave the saving business to Jesus?

If I reason that a phenomena has merit, and there is no compelling reason to reject it, I have the option to believe it or not.

Ah, an amendment of your earlier stance. OK, so you now have an option to believe it - or not. What could compel you not to believe in a phenomenon, even if it had merit?

Yup.

And you think you fail. It seems to me that your faith doesn't give you much...well, faith in yourself.

Yup.

Why don't you live according to that?

I don't want or need "an excuse to get back at the world." I chose to try to escape from the world, and to some measure, I succeeded. That's good enough for me.

And yet, you come here, on this forum, to mock the rest of us.

Incorrect. I have applied reason, then faith.

Rubbish. There is no valid reason behind your faith. You believe because you choose to believe, regardless of what merit a phenomenon has.

If I believed without reason, I'd believe that David Copperfield can levitate elephants.

Then, we are back to the Vikings and their belief in Thor as a reason (!) for thunder and lightning. You know Copperfield can't levitate elephants, because you know the story behind it.

I cannot claim for certain that we are worshipping the same God as others. But I believe that is the case.

No reason applied here either.

Yup.

Let me guess: You choose to believe that it isn't a case of mass hallucinations?

An example is noticing wild animals communicating to and with me. Another might be noticing a sound that I realize I've heard many times, but never paid any attention to. Another is the constant and continual thought, contemplation, and prayer occurring in my mind without being interrupted by "human environmental noise."

Why are these signs of a divine being?

Sex can be described as "becoming one with another":

You bet. But that doesn't answer the question: Why is having those emotions an indication of the existence of a supernatural being?

Prayer is described as becoming one in spirit with God.

Sex is physical, prayer is spiritual, both are becoming one with another.

You clearly haven't had good sex, baby. Sex can definitely also be described as spiritual.

Enjoy your real world.

I do. Immensely.

I hear times are really "booming" in that seaport known as Beirut..............

Yeah. And you know why? Because they hold different religious beliefs.

Nope. Nor do I reject them.
...
Yup. No way of verifying, and no way of proving otherwise.

Go figure.

No, tell me: Why do you take their word for granted? Is it because their stories confirm what you already believe?

Might.

All NDE stories, published up to today, invented by one person?

Who's in the real world, and who's in Fantasyland, Claus?

I am talking about those stories you linked to as a reason for your beliefs. You can't verify them, yet you choose to believe. Not much reason behind that, eh?

Claus, who said that you are more sinful than I? Frankly, I'm sure I'm more sinful than you.

But I don't believe. By definition, I am far, far more sinful than you. I am doomed to eternal Hell. At least, you got a shot at redemption.

I've still got some serious lumber in my eyes.

In which case, you might want to reconsider posting here to spite those who don't share your beliefs. Otherwise, people might think you a hypocrite. Can you blame them?

No, there was physical evidence of a physical thing that the Vikings didn't understand, and attributed to the supernatural.

Now that we know better, we don't do that anymore.

That's the evolution of understanding.

Great stuff, huh?

But the things you experience - e.g., animals trying to communicate with you - couldn't that have natural explanations, only found in time to come?

I can't. If it is beyond the natural world, I don't have the power to show it to you.

There you go: Science can explain everything. You have just destroyed your claim that you have reasoned your way to your belief.

 

[Belz...]

Free. Hopeful. Comforted. Joyful. Peaceful. Loved. All the same things that people who have experienced in near-death events claim to feel. And all while still healthy and not in physical crisis.

Not all of them. NDEs vary with culture and religion, and some are unpleasant, indeed.

What science cannot do yet is give us an explanation of phenomena beyond the natural world.

That's true. Claus' example wasn't perfect, because lightning and thunder are directly observable. But the point remains: if there WAS proof of the existence of the supernatural, whether or not we could understand it NOW, it would be proof, nonetheless.

 

[Belz...]

But it's quite accurate, isn't it?

Absolutely. In most debates, with most people. But SOME will listen to good evidence.

And it doesn't mean that they weren't, either.

That's where burden of proof comes in.

By that do you mean that all people who suffer cardiac arrest don't reawaken with a NDE story, or that not all people who suffer cardiac arrest reawaken with a NDE story?

Careful, now. People who experience SUDDEN cardiac arrest can't have NDEs, because there is no stage at which they are still alive yet deprived of oxygen, except maybe after ressucitation.

If you reject God, you will get want you want:

No one rejects God. You either believe or you don't. By your reasoning, this means atheists don't go to hell: they vanish into oblivion upon death.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Oh, you're a skeptic all right. I think you cross the line to denial sometimes.

Do point out where and when.

How about [here.

I chose to link to an entire thread. In this thread, you deny the right for the masses to keep and bear arms.

A single post can't illustrate your position here. You go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how folks shouldn't have guns.

You don't adequately consider the positions of others here. You continue on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on regarding how the Nazis would have defeated armed civilians.

You are denying the obvious.

That ain't skepticism. It's denial.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
It could be either, or it could be my own human weakness.

And, yet, you choose to believe that it is your god who is responsible. Not much reason left, is there?

Yes, there is.

Like I wrote above (which you clearly choose to ignore), "it could be either, or it could be my own human weakness."

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Who said that I am "qualified to steer people towards" God?

Aren't you trying to get people to convert?

Nope.

Are you?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Religion.

You have lost track, I see. I want you to pick a paranormal phenomenon other than religion, so we can see if your "reason" should compel you to believe in that phenomenon.

I haven't lost track. I'm ahead of you.

I haven't "reasoned" through other paranormal phenomenon. I've focused on religion.

Any paranormal phenomenon. Clairvoyance? Dowsing? What do you know about?

Not much. I'm not much into "clairvoyance", "dowsing", or even "channelling".

You?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Correct.

Why waste your life waiting for something that, in all probability, won't happen?

I'm not "wasting my life."

I've lived a fuller life than most. One filled with sin and "fun."

You?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I can't save other people. I can't even save myself.

Ah, I see. You leave the saving business to Jesus?

Yup.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
If I reason that a phenomena has merit, and there is no compelling reason to reject it, I have the option to believe it or not.

Ah, an amendment of your earlier stance. OK, so you now have an option to believe it - or not.

I've always held that option.

What could compel you not to believe in a phenomenon, even if it had merit?

Proof, or even evidence.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yup.

And you think you fail. It seems to me that your faith doesn't give you much...well, faith in yourself.

You just don't get it, do you? I know I fail. I have failed.

I have absolutely no faith in myself. I can't. I've proven to myself that I cannot defeat sin by myself.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yup.

Why don't you live according to that?

I've lost track. Live according to what?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I don't want or need "an excuse to get back at the world." I chose to try to escape from the world, and to some measure, I succeeded. That's good enough for me.

And yet, you come here, on this forum, to mock the rest of us.

I wonder about that all the time. I come on this forum, and I have no reason or understanding why.

Call it "destiny." "Fate." "The will of God." "Stupidity."

It certainly isn't to "mock" you.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Incorrect. I have applied reason, then faith.

Rubbish. There is no valid reason behind your faith. You believe because you choose to believe, regardless of what merit a phenomenon has.

You're half right. I believe because I choose to believe, and there is merit for my belief.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
If I believed without reason, I'd believe that David Copperfield can levitate elephants.

Then, we are back to the Vikings and their belief in Thor as a reason (!) for thunder and lightning. You know Copperfield can't levitate elephants, because you know the story behind it.

No, I don't the story. I just know that he can't levitate elephants.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yup.

Let me guess: You choose to believe that it isn't a case of mass hallucinations?

I have no reason to believe it was, and I have reason to believe that it wasn't.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
An example is noticing wild animals communicating to and with me. Another might be noticing a sound that I realize I've heard many times, but never paid any attention to. Another is the constant and continual thought, contemplation, and prayer occurring in my mind without being interrupted by "human environmental noise."

Why are these signs of a divine being?

They're not, necessarily. They're signs of me that I don't get to see often enough, and signs of spirituality that few know.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Sex can be described as "becoming one with another":

You bet. But that doesn't answer the question: Why is having those emotions an indication of the existence of a supernatural being?

Because when you have them in prayer (seeking them), and then attain them (without sex), then you can attribute them to such feelings without having sex.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Prayer is described as becoming one in spirit with God.

Sex is physical, prayer is spiritual, both are becoming one with another.

You clearly haven't had good sex, baby. Sex can definitely also be described as spiritual.

Oh, how wrong you are! I've had incredible sex.

I drip with sin, remember?............

You just haven't had good prayer.

You don't know what you're missing, "baby."

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Enjoy your real world.

I do. Immensely.

Including the fabulous Mediterranean resort of Beirut?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I hear times are really "booming" in that seaport known as Beirut..............

Yeah. And you know why? Because they hold different religious beliefs.

Just like you and me.

Frankly, I think it's because the hate each other, and want to kill each other.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Nope. Nor do I reject them.
...
Yup. No way of verifying, and no way of proving otherwise.

Go figure.

No, tell me: Why do you take their word for granted?

I don't take anybody's word "for granted." Even yours.

Is it because their stories confirm what you already believe?

Maybe.

And maybe it's because I know other "stories" are full of manure.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Might.

All NDE stories, published up to today, invented by one person?

Who's in the real world, and who's in Fantasyland, Claus?

I am talking about those stories you linked to as a reason for your beliefs. You can't verify them, yet you choose to believe. Not much reason behind that, eh?

I provided a single link, Claus. As you should know (as an "intelligent" person), there are lots, lots more.

No, I can't "verify" them. I don't need to. I believe.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Claus, who said that you are more sinful than I? Frankly, I'm sure I'm more sinful than you.

But I don't believe. By definition, I am far, far more sinful than you. I am doomed to eternal Hell. At least, you got a shot at redemption.

Yup. I've got a shot.

And, as long as you reject God, you won't.

Sorry. I wish it weren't so, but I didn't "write the book."

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I've still got some serious lumber in my eyes.

In which case, you might want to reconsider posting here to spite those who don't share your beliefs.

Yeah, I might. I should.

Otherwise, people might think you a hypocrite. Can you blame them?

Nope.

But I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not advocating that people should "be like me."

They should be better.

Me, too.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
No, there was physical evidence of a physical thing that the Vikings didn't understand, and attributed to the supernatural.

Now that we know better, we don't do that anymore.

That's the evolution of understanding.

Great stuff, huh?

But the things you experience - e.g., animals trying to communicate with you - couldn't that have natural explanations, only found in time to come?

Nope. They were found in that time.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I can't. If it is beyond the natural world, I don't have the power to show it to you.

There you go: Science can explain everything.

Really?

Everything?

You have just destroyed your claim that you have reasoned your way to your belief.

And you have just destroyed the legitimasy of science.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Free. Hopeful. Comforted. Joyful. Peaceful. Loved. All the same things that people who have experienced in near-death events claim to feel. And all while still healthy and not in physical crisis.

Not all of them. NDEs vary with culture and religion, and some are unpleasant, indeed.

Thank you. You're right. Not all are pleasant.

Tell us about the subsequent lives of those who come back with the unpleasant stories.

What science cannot do yet is give us an explanation of phenomena beyond the natural world.

That's true. Claus' example wasn't perfect, because lightning and thunder are directly observable. But the point remains: if there WAS proof of the existence of the supernatural, whether or not we could understand it NOW, it would be proof, nonetheless.

And, yet, there is not.

No proof. None.

You must believe, reject, be indifferent, or waver.

There are no other options.

 

[Huntster]

People who experience SUDDEN cardiac arrest can't have NDEs, because there is no stage at which they are still alive yet deprived of oxygen, except maybe after ressucitation.

Do you have some evidence of that claim?

No one rejects God. You either believe or you don't.

I believe I can offer evidence that there are some people who do vehemently reject God.

Can you provide evidence that "no one rejects God?"

By your reasoning, this means atheists don't go to hell: they vanish into oblivion upon death.

Oblivion?

What's your definition of "oblivion."

Again, here's the definition of Hell:

The state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed, reserved for those who refuse by their own free choice to believe and be converted from sin, even to the end of their lives

 

[Belz...]

Thank you. You're right. Not all are pleasant.

Tell us about the subsequent lives of those who come back with the unpleasant stories.

How would that be relevant to the discussion ? Why would you care how a buddhist lives his buddhist life after an NDE ?

And, yet, there is not.

No proof. None.

You must believe, reject, be indifferent, or waver.

There are no other options.

Rejecting the evidence is not the same as rejecting god, Huntster. If he doesn't exist, I can't reject HIM, only the "evidence" for his existence.

 

[Belz...]

Do you have some evidence of that claim?

People who've had cardiac arrests. I do believe I mentionned my uncle. My mother's had one as well. Complete blank.

I believe I can offer evidence that there are some people who do vehemently reject God.

Can you provide evidence that "no one rejects God?"

People who believe he exists and yet reject him ?

Oblivion?

What's your definition of "oblivion."

Nothingness, as far as the mind is concerned.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Thank you. You're right. Not all are pleasant.

Tell us about the subsequent lives of those who come back with the unpleasant stories.

How would that be relevant to the discussion ?

Well, like you point out, all NDE testimony isn't all pansies and fluff.

Why would "the other testimony" not be pertinent?

Why would you care how a buddhist lives his buddhist life after an NDE ?

Why not?

You?

You seem to want to discuss the topic. Don't you want to discuss it fully?

And, yet, there is not.

No proof. None.

You must believe, reject, be indifferent, or waver.

There are no other options.

Rejecting the evidence is not the same as rejecting god, Huntster.

But rejecting the evidence isn't good skepticism, is it?

If he doesn't exist, I can't reject HIM, only the "evidence" for his existence.

And if you reject Him, even though He might exist, means you choose to do so.