• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Drug Evolution

ponderingturtle said:
Isn't part of the problem that the difference with some drugs between a high and an overdose is pretty small? SO you would still get accidental overdoses with those drugs
Click to expand...

Not as much as you might think; the variation in potency and composition is much more significant.

Relatively few people overdose on (OTC) acetaminophen, despite the relatively narrow window between the therapeutic dose level and the harmful overdose level. Quality control -- we know exactly what's in a tablet, down to the milligram.
 
greyfeather75 said:
Rather than a tolerance effect, it might be that some people enjoy a deeper level of intoxication than is comfortable for others....
Click to expand...

This aspect should be familiar to any social drinker. How drunk do you want to get? Is being unable to pronounce words properly a good aspect of a night on the town, or a bad one?
 
unfortunately the alcohol also effects one's perception of their own behavior
I've seen quite a few DRUNK (Obliterated) persons who believed themselves to be Cassanova incarnate when intoxicated ;)
 
drkitten said:
Not as much as you might think; the variation in potency and composition is much more significant.

Relatively few people overdose on (OTC) acetaminophen, despite the relatively narrow window between the therapeutic dose level and the harmful overdose level. Quality control -- we know exactly what's in a tablet, down to the milligram.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about GHB in particular, but I don't really know.

Still if this where true it would also mean that illegal ones would still be more likely to OD on as smaller variations in concentration can lead to an overdose.

What is the relativeness of an overdose of acetaminophen to the standard OTC dose?

Just wondering in part because I have a habit of increaseing the dose of OTC medication for myself(generaly take 3 instead of 2 pills for 2 pill recomended doses) I do not really worry about it because I am a rather large man(6'4" and stocky 30" inseam)
 
ponderingturtle said:
I was thinking about GHB in particular, but I don't really know.

Still if this where true it would also mean that illegal ones would still be more likely to OD on as smaller variations in concentration can lead to an overdose.

What is the relativeness of an overdose of acetaminophen to the standard OTC dose?

Just wondering in part because I have a habit of increaseing the dose of OTC medication for myself(generaly take 3 instead of 2 pills for 2 pill recomended doses) I do not really worry about it because I am a rather large man(6'4" and stocky 30" inseam)
Click to expand...

I work as a chemist in a Tylenol factory. A biologist would be more familiar with the toxicity of acetaminophen but...

A children's dose of actaminophen is about 160mg. Specs require that, upon release, a dosage unit should contain 92%-108% of that. Generally, we get 98%-102%. That should give you some idea.
 
Last edited:
ponderingturtle said:
What is the relativeness of an overdose of acetaminophen to the standard OTC dose?
Click to expand...

This page suggest that "overdose can occur with as little as one or two tablets above an ordinary tolerated dose." Some studies suggest that even the highest recommended dose (4 grams daily) may cause liver damage.

The generally-recognized safe threshhold is about 150mg/kg. For a 50kg person, that would be about 7.5g of the drug, or about 15 "maximum strength" (500mg) tablets. If you're in the habit of popping three Tylenol every four hours, you could easily do that in a single bad sinus day....
 
KingMerv00 said:
A children's dose of actaminophen is about 160mg. Specs require that, upon release, a dosage unit should contain 92%-108% of that.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the numbers. Just to put this in perspective -- a recent study that I can't find right now did an analysis of the variation in potency of a set of "street" drugs that a reporter had bought wandering central London. The strength of the drug varied over more than a full order of magnitude -- call it 50%-500% of "nominal."
 
for most drugs, people way underestimate the amount it would take to kill a healthy individual - mostly because of propaganda intended to frighten - some drugs like GHB do have narrow dosage ranges - but that is likely because the drug itself even in low doses is inherently toxic...the "high" being just a mild form of toxicity (like in alcohol)

but something like LSD/Marijuana/Shrooms - the toxic dose is many hundreds or thousands of times the recreational dose...

The recommended daily max dose of tylenol is about 4000mg while daily doses of 10000mg have been shown to cause liver damage....

Take vicodin for example, the APAP content is far more toxic than the hydrocodone content.
 
probably close to the amount that would be required to suffocate a person with...maybe if you clogged the airways with bong-resin.....
 
drkitten said:
This page suggest that "overdose can occur with as little as one or two tablets above an ordinary tolerated dose." Some studies suggest that even the highest recommended dose (4 grams daily) may cause liver damage.

The generally-recognized safe threshhold is about 150mg/kg. For a 50kg person, that would be about 7.5g of the drug, or about 15 "maximum strength" (500mg) tablets. If you're in the habit of popping three Tylenol every four hours, you could easily do that in a single bad sinus day....
Click to expand...

Well I weight more than 100kg and have never taken anywhere close to 30 pills of one kind in a day. 50 kg is not very large and I did mention that I am large.

Still interesting point, but how persistent would it be? you are putting the doses over time so you could have some of the first dose out of your system. So taking 15 over the course of 1 day might not be the same as taking 15 at once.
 
Suffering, Happiness & Science

Dragonrock said:
No, not the evolution of drugs, but rather evolution from drugs. Let us say that all drugs are legalized. In addition, manufacturers are given immunity from the results of misuse. So, people are able to purchase, at greatly reduced prices, any drug that they want. They can also take as much as they can afford but will only be able to blame themselves if they die. Now, I expect that in a short amount of time there would be thousands, if not millions, of dead junkies all over the country. The question is, of the people who survive, both users and non-users, what traits would they likely carry to their offspring?
Click to expand...
Interesting topic. Well, we already have this situation with alcohol, which is a neurotoxic chemical that in large amounts, acts little better on the CNS than huffing paint thinner. In contrast, most controlled stuff (cannabis, opiates/opioids, cocaine, dmt, lsd, mdma, mescaline) just elevates or temporarily changes the body's natural neurochemical processes. The effect of any opiate/opioid "narcotic painkiller" which the FDA is always up in arms about in particular, in trivial amounts is identical to running around the block once and feeling the warm bodyload and slight mood lift, the reward mechanism that impels everyone to do it again, except much more strongly. Few people can be blamed for wanting to feel like this all day; it is a natural state of functional well-being. The problem has always been tolerance, rebound, and withdrawal.

BLTC research has actually addressed this question, and it is a very important one: using science to eliminate human suffering in the world as an imperative goal. Their other literature is some of most refreshing, creative, and forward thinking I've yet read on ethics and naturalism as well.
 
Last edited:
drkitten said:
Thanks for the numbers. Just to put this in perspective -- a recent study that I can't find right now did an analysis of the variation in potency of a set of "street" drugs that a reporter had bought wandering central London. The strength of the drug varied over more than a full order of magnitude -- call it 50%-500% of "nominal."
Click to expand...

I have worked at two different drug companies since I graduated college in May 2003. I have seen great precision at both. The release limits may be 92%-108% for Tylenol but I have never seen anything even remotely close to an out of spec result that wasn't obviously caused by analyst error. When I see 2% variation from the ideal, I am surprised.

I recall a paper presentation at TAM4 on the subject of nutritional supplements and government regulation. IIRC, the speaker said that an independent study of store bought pills found variation as great as 50%. I can't even imagine the lax controls they must have at those plants. :boggled:

I have no doubt in my mind that if drugs like LSD were made legal, pharm. companies would have no trouble keeping dosage uniform.
 
Last edited:
ponderingturtle said:
Well I weight more than 100kg and have never taken anywhere close to 30 pills of one kind in a day. 50 kg is not very large and I did mention that I am large.

Still interesting point, but how persistent would it be? you are putting the doses over time so you could have some of the first dose out of your system. So taking 15 over the course of 1 day might not be the same as taking 15 at once.
Click to expand...

The advice I've had previously from my Pharmacist is to take the recommended dosage and give it 15-45 minutes (Soluble > Gel cap > capsule > tablet) and if it doesn't work then try another type of painkiller. For example, if you've had paracetamol (Tylenol) then try Aspirin or Ibuprofen as they do the same thing, broadly speaking, but work in different ways.

Edit - You can look up pharmacology information here but at the end of the day you're always better off speaking to a Pharmacist :)
 
greyfeather75 said:
)...but something like LSD/Marijuana/Shrooms - the toxic dose is many hundreds or thousands of times the recreational dose....
Click to expand...
A friend of mine was there when Louis "Jolly" West, M.D. ODed an elephant with LSD at the Oklahoma zoo.
I'll look for a link.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/735908/posts

287 mg would have sufficed for all takers at Woostock.
"We'd like to make, like, an announcement. Don't take the brown blotter acid with, like the little elephants on it."
 
Last edited:
Jeff Corey said:
A friend of mine was there when Louis "Jolly" West, M.D. ODed an elephant with LSD at the Oklahoma zoo.
I'll look for a link.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/735908/posts

287 mg would have sufficed for all takers at Woostock.
"We'd like to make, like, an announcement. Don't take the brown blotter acid with, like the little elephants on it."
Click to expand...
I doubt it would be enough for all of the people who wanted to take it at Woodstock. There were estimated 500,000 people. Some people routinely take 1 mg and I have heard of some taking more.
 
The usual dose was 100 to 200 micrograms. But that was the pure lysergic acid (Owlsley), not the street version, which could have contained nonhomeopathic additives of methamphetamine, PCP and strychnine, just to make it most interesting.
 
Jeff Corey said:
The usual dose was 100 to 200 micrograms. But that was the pure lysergic acid (Owlsley), not the street version, which could have contained nonhomeopathic additives of methamphetamine, PCP and strychnine, just to make it most interesting.
Click to expand...
In the days of woodstock the usual dose was 250 (most pills) to 500 micrograms with or without additives. Or at least that was what I saw in testing done at the time. I had a friend whose father was a doctor and he got all the drugs tested. I think standard doses have gone down a lot since then.
 
Jeff Corey said:
More than 1000 micrograms?
Cogito ergot sum.
Click to expand...
I am not sure why anyone would want to take that much since mostly people don't seem to remember so well what they experienced at higher doses. I knew a guy who routinely took 1 mg doses. The guy with the doctor father said he took 2 mg and said it was a life changing experience. Albert Hoffman (who I think either discovered it or first synthesized it) took an incredibly high dose and did not die. There have not been many people who ever died from an overdose of LSD if any. An interesting factoid is one of my high school teachers was kicked out of college (Berkley) for making LSD in the college lab.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom