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Prayer and power

Genesius,

If you were to show up at our house during supper you might get fed but we'd want to know where your parents were. Just because you ate supper with us wouldn't make you family.

Meffy,

I just read the 10th post. I'm sure I would have had to have been there to see that dubious account. Most people don't understand the concept of asking. My wife often 'asks' me for something (honey, would you take out the trash?) but she's really not asking and if I know what's good for me I'll do as I'm asked. :)

Gene
 
Genesius said:
July 19th is the anthropomorphic skunk Christmas? Dare I ask what kind of Savior y'all worship? Or does Christmas have a different meaning in the Kingdom of the Skunks?
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No savior, I just have trouble remembering when holidays fall. So why not be generous?

AgingYoung said:
Merry Christmas, Meffy. I'm planning on getting you the same thing I got you last year.
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Ta! Same thing Zippy got for Jean-Paul Sartre, a sure-fire people pleaser. I ordered peace on earth for you, but it didn't arrive in time. If they ever do deliver it, I'll send it along.
 
I won't hold my breath waiting for that delivery.

looks around for an exit...
there is no exit!
is this forum hell?

Gene
 
AgingYoung said:
Genesius,

If you were to show up at our house during supper you might get fed but we'd want to know where your parents were. Just because you ate supper with us wouldn't make you family.
Click to expand...

Which applies. . . how, exactly? Aren't we all supposed to be God's children?
 
The exit is that little "Close Window" button on your browser. Easy to use. Why, even I can cli
 
elliotfc said:
That would make free will irrelevant though, right? Or maybe?
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Wrong. It should not affect free will at all. You could still decide, but your decision would be based on much better information. I can never understand why people describe a God who wants us to be ill-informed.

elliotfc said:
Is there *anything under the sun* that everybody agrees with, uniformly and absolutely? I guess there's math, or maybe just basic math, because some people can't get more advanced math.
Click to expand...
Of course not, which is why it is so silly to claim the Bible is completely true. Saying that it is true but nobody agrees what "true" means is meaningless.

elliotfc said:
Have you ever been frustrated with someone? You tell them something direct and plain, and they hear something different? I think God will respect, and does respect, obstinancy. If you hear the perfect truth, free will enables it to be judged as *imperfect*, that's where I relate it to a deception, because one who does hear the God and think he/she is hearing something evil is being deceived. Self-deception.
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It usually means that although it is direct and plain to me, it is not that way to them. So I try with more info or speaking more clearly. Sure there are people who are intentionally ignoring you, but that isn't what non-believers are doing. All the ones I know are listening intently for evidence of God, but he is not speaking clearly.

elliotfc said:
How could God choose to speak in a way where we wouldn't be deceived? A person can always *doubt* what was said...chalk it up to Satan or to extraterrestrials or to government water contamination projects.
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Well for one thing, He could do it in person instead of relying on an aging, oft-translated, poorly understood book. He used to do that all the time, according to the Old Testament. When did He contract laryngitis?

elliotfc said:
Or, as we Christians believe, God will eventually talk to us in the clearest possible way, it's around the corner, and we live through this important, yet finite, separation from God with faith as our greatest possession.
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Yes. Hope with expectations. I'm familiar with the concept. You seem to be proud of the fact that you make such decisions based on incomplete or absent evidence. I have a hard time understanding why.

elliotfc said:
Or, as many will say to God..."it's your fault for not stopping me." It's an excellent analogy. But I think God will catch the self-deceivers...then it's up to them to do something about it. Or not.
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Unbelievers would never say anything like that. They don't believe there is a God to stop them or a devil to tempt them or a savior to forgive them. They take responsibility for their own actions.

But according to the bible, God punishes those who were decieved by him or given insufficient information by him. Or as Omar Khayyam says, "Sued for a debt we never did contract/And cannot answer. Oh the sorry trade."

elliotfc said:
Well, no, one can claim that. He obviously did claim it. It's literally true within its limitations, is I think what he's saying.
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What, literally true except when its not?
elliotfc said:
Would I wish that he would extend that idea further than he does? Sure.

I think that a Harry Potter is literally true, if you immerse yourself within it and accept the world that is portrayed. I've never read one, but I don't need to, it's true as being *literary*. Literally true. Sorry for being difficult. Not really bwah hah.
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"Literal" and "literary" do not mean the same thing. You know what the word "literal" means. Yes, I realize that you are making a sort of joke, but it would also seem that you think this joke is relevant. If so, its relevance escapes me.
 
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Genesius,

The Lord's prayer is in a larger context of teaching but even within the smaller context of praying Jesus explains quite a lot. Most christians today ignore that teaching and at times they cite what Jesus did as justification for what they do. You can't hardly point out to them that they aren't Jesus; they can't hear that.

I've listened to some that pray publicly and wonder who they're talking to. Sometimes they're talking to Jesus and sometimes to God. Mostly I think they're talking to hear themselves; can I hear me now? Or they're like the pharisees ...

  • And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

The Lord's prayer is an example of how people that are God's children should pray. One of the points of that prayer is 'your will be done.' The idea that you can ask God for anything and since he hears you he should give you what you ask for misses the point that you're asking; you have a request.

If someone has done the work that God expects them to do then they're a child. Not everyone has or will do that work.

Gene
 
AgingYoung said:
The Lord's prayer is in a larger context of teaching but even within the smaller context of praying Jesus explains quite a lot. Most Christians today ignore that teaching and at times they cite what Jesus did as justification for what they do. You can't hardly point out to them that they aren't Jesus; they can't hear that.

I've listened to some that pray publicly and wonder who they're talking to. Sometimes they're talking to Jesus and sometimes to God. Mostly I think they're talking to hear themselves; can I hear me now? Or they're like the pharisees ...
  • And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
The Lord's prayer is an example of how people that are God's children should pray. One of the points of that prayer is 'your will be done.' The idea that you can ask God for anything and since he hears you he should give you what you ask for misses the point that you're asking; you have a request.
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Interesting, because that particular prayer is probably the most oft-repeated prayer of all, and is recited aloud in almost every one of the many Christian churches I have been to, as well as at public events. So if this really is the way praying should be done, then having those who "love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets" choosing this particular prayer as their mantra is devastatingly ironic.

Oh yeah, and the Lord's Prayer does include a specific material request.

AgingYoung said:
If someone has done the work that God expects them to do then they're a child. Not everyone has or will do that work.
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There isn't any firm consensus on what work God expects people to do.
***
Edits in blue)
Oops. Brain fart. The Lord's Prayer is not a Psalm. Not even the 23rd.
 
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Tricky said:
Dang that Slithery Dee.
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Feh. *9_9* I've been known to go through doors marked "This Way to the Egress!" too.

Tricky said:
So if this really is the way praying should be done, then having those who "love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets" choosing this particular prayer as their mantra is devastatingly ironic.
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"If a person who indulges in gluttony is a glutton, and a person who commits a felony is a felon, then God is an iron."
-- Spider Robinson
 
I've said it before, but it bears saying ad eternam.

When I prayed, I wasn't asking God for anything selfish.

I wasn't praying for a pony, or please, please, let him ask me out, or please let my team win or let me pass the test.

I was praying for an end to my suffering.
I was begging god to please let me have just one friend whose father didn't want to have sex with me.

Later, I was begging God to please heal my husband from his addictions, because I've seen what a nice, caring, loving man he can be, and can't he be that man all the time, please? Can he stop hitting me, screaming at me, humiliating me, insulting me, ignoring me....can he stop telling me what a horrible mother I am, can he stop leaving other women's phone numbers and underwear where I can find them, and can he stop dragging me to church where I get to watch him weep and wail and promise God he'll do better, and then take me and the kids home and go out to the movies with his current mistress that afternoon?

And all I got back was silence, fat lips, and PTSD.

Now some folks want me to think that what I was praying for wasn't God's will. Isn't that what's being said? God grants prayers which fall in line with his will. Being human, I can only submit to that will; I've no right to ask anything of God.

God wanted all those men to hurt me?
God wanted my husband to hurt me?
Pardon my blunt, but that's pretty harsh.

I've got limited choices here, you must admit. God hates me, or God doesn't exist. I figure you eventually have to come to a place much like that, if you're a fundie and you're tired of being hurt by your beliefs. Remember, being a fundie woman, I also had to put up with every man's disdain, in my circle. I'm the source of all evil in the world. I'm the weaker vessel. I can't speak in church, must submit to my husband, and have no recourse. No one is on my side. I'm a lowly woman.

Yes, Elliot. I know you live in a wonderful world where Christianity isn't really like this. Goodie for you. When you talk, all I can see is someone else God likes better than me.

But if one is lucky, when one tries to break away from this hell on earth, one encounters logic, reason, and critical thought. One can realize, "I have been lied to, for years." It isn't that God hates me....it's that there is no God, and I have been duped by a lot of people, most of whom have also been duped.

I've been depending on, counting on, and being disappointed by......nothing.
I've believed the lie. The Great Lie. I've been taught all my life how not to think, because thinking is antithetical to belief.

Well that's just stupid.

So I'm sticking to my argument, Elliot. God promised many times in the bible to grant his followers what we ask for. Yes, there are verses in which Jesus addressed those promises to his disciples. There are other places where the common person was being addressed. And my fundie faith taught me from my earliest memory that those promises were for me. But they lied. They may not have known they were lying, but that doesn't negate the fact.

If, when I die, I do encounter a god after all, I'll have only one question for him, and I won't be the least bit ashamed to ask it, stridently and often:

Why?
 
slingblade said:
I've said it before, but it bears saying ad eternam.

When I prayed, I wasn't asking God for anything selfish.

I wasn't praying for a pony, or please, please, let him ask me out, or please let my team win or let me pass the test.

I was praying for an end to my suffering.
I was begging god to please let me have just one friend whose father didn't want to have sex with me.

Later, I was begging God to please heal my husband from his addictions, because I've seen what a nice, caring, loving man he can be, and can't he be that man all the time, please? Can he stop hitting me, screaming at me, humiliating me, insulting me, ignoring me....can he stop telling me what a horrible mother I am, can he stop leaving other women's phone numbers and underwear where I can find them, and can he stop dragging me to church where I get to watch him weep and wail and promise God he'll do better, and then take me and the kids home and go out to the movies with his current mistress that afternoon?

And all I got back was silence, fat lips, and PTSD.

Now some folks want me to think that what I was praying for wasn't God's will. Isn't that what's being said? God grants prayers which fall in line with his will. Being human, I can only submit to that will; I've no right to ask anything of God.

God wanted all those men to hurt me?
God wanted my husband to hurt me?
Pardon my blunt, but that's pretty harsh.

I've got limited choices here, you must admit. God hates me, or God doesn't exist. I figure you eventually have to come to a place much like that, if you're a fundie and you're tired of being hurt by your beliefs. Remember, being a fundie woman, I also had to put up with every man's disdain, in my circle. I'm the source of all evil in the world. I'm the weaker vessel. I can't speak in church, must submit to my husband, and have no recourse. No one is on my side. I'm a lowly woman.

Yes, Elliot. I know you live in a wonderful world where Christianity isn't really like this. Goodie for you. When you talk, all I can see is someone else God likes better than me.

But if one is lucky, when one tries to break away from this hell on earth, one encounters logic, reason, and critical thought. One can realize, "I have been lied to, for years." It isn't that God hates me....it's that there is no God, and I have been duped by a lot of people, most of whom have also been duped.

I've been depending on, counting on, and being disappointed by......nothing.
I've believed the lie. The Great Lie. I've been taught all my life how not to think, because thinking is antithetical to belief.

Well that's just stupid.

So I'm sticking to my argument, Elliot. God promised many times in the bible to grant his followers what we ask for. Yes, there are verses in which Jesus addressed those promises to his disciples. There are other places where the common person was being addressed. And my fundie faith taught me from my earliest memory that those promises were for me. But they lied. They may not have known they were lying, but that doesn't negate the fact.

If, when I die, I do encounter a god after all, I'll have only one question for him, and I won't be the least bit ashamed to ask it, stridently and often:

Why?
Click to expand...

I know, intellectually, that violence is not an answer, but it would be so emotionally satisfying to give your x a good thumping.:mad:

As to your question for God, the best answer I’ve found is at the very last of the SciFi novel “Venus on the Half Shell” by Kilgor Trout. It’s a great read and well worth the search for an old copy.
 
Slingblade,

  • God promised many times in the bible to grant his followers what we ask for.
I'd have to read those to see what you're talking about. Jesus prayed that God take this cup away from him (dying on the cross) yet qualified it with, 'your will be done.' A very big problem for christianity is that if you're good at presenting what is selling you can make a good living at it. There aren't many tent makers like Paul who made their own living. Sometimes preachers say the darnedest things.

  • I've got limited choices here, you must admit. God hates me, or God doesn't exist.
There are other possibilities. Preachers lying from the pulpit comes to mind. Here's a good example of that. Some quote Isaiah, 'by his stripes you are healed.' And they emphasize 'are' meaning in the present tense. They will insist that you 'are' healed right now. But you clearly still are missing the end of your favorite nose picking index finger. You aren't healed; the finger is still a stub. It's ok for typing but ..... So who's the liar? Isaiah or the preacher?

Gene
 
AgingYoung said:
Slingblade,

  • God promised many times in the bible to grant his followers what we ask for.
I'd have to read those to see what you're talking about.
Click to expand...

I just love how people keep acting as if they have no clue the bible says such outlandish things. I'm tired of that game. Let's play another. Verses have been posted, and I assume most folks who post here know how to google a bible. If the verses I've already posted aren't proof enough, folks are on their own.

Or else I'm just a lying bitch who hasn't got the brains of an artichoke, in which case, why bear the burden of trying to "reason" with me? Go poke someone else. I'm sore.

Jesus prayed that God take this cup away from him (dying on the cross) yet qualified it with, 'your will be done.' A very big problem for christianity is that if you're good at presenting what is selling you can make a good living at it. There aren't many tent makers like Paul who made their own living. Sometimes preachers say the darnedest things.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Funny that, but preachers' voices are the only voices I've ever heard. Never heard God. Never was spoken to by God. Total silence, within and without. Seems a truly loving god wouldn't let someone who cried out his name in torment just continue in that torment. But it happens every day, to better people than I. Can't imagine why that is.....

So who's the liar? Isaiah or the preacher?
Click to expand...

After everything, what makes you think it matters anymore?
 
AgingYoung said:
Jesus prayed that God take this cup away from him (dying on the cross) yet qualified it with, 'your will be done.'
Click to expand...

Had another thought: doesn't this mean Jesus was talking to himself, trying to renegotiate a deal he made with himself for something he set up in the first place?

And you want me to think I should model this, apparently.

:dl:
 
slingblade,
  • I just love how people keep acting as if they have no clue the bible says such outlandish things.
I'm aware of quite a few ideas that people have that I think are misconceptions but I couldn't possibly know all of what you're thinking.

Your understanding of Jesus in the garden (trinity) points to an absurdity but you leave the idea at that point. With some rather thorough investigation Newton came to this conclusion about the trinity...

  • Newton's anti-trinitarianism is evident also in his interpretation of Revelation. According to Newton, the seventh seal began in the year 380, when trinitarianism was officially ratified at the Council of Constantinople. The great apostasy was not Romanism, but trinitarianism, “the false infernal religion”, to quote Newton's own words.

When I compare Newton's understanding to yours what I have to admit is yours is lacking. But you say you see.

I have no idea how the trinity could come from the jewish understanding in the shema...
  • Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
Jesus was a jew. He wasn't aware that he was God...
  • Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
It's a truism that everyone has a perfect right to come to any conclusion they care to but how wise is it to take the premise of liars to come to a conclusion? Since you're willing the liars rob you. I'm not willing. I know a lot of what the bible explains but I don't know what your thoughts on it are; I couldn't know that.

please
don't
quote
this
entire
post
if
you'd
like
to
respond
to
one
single
idea
in
it.
That
creates
one
heck
of
a
lot
of
verbage.

Gene
 
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