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Hezbollah: take that

Meadmaker said:
I also can't come up with a good reason to bomb the Beirut airport. Is there speculation that arms are being smuggled in on commercial flights?
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There are at least a few good reasons to bomb the airport. One, Israel wants to insure that Hezbollah does not take the kidnapped soldiers outside the country. Two, it prevents Hezbollah from hijacking any airplanes, foreign or domestic. Three, it is part of the blockade/siege. No supplies or arms can come in. No persons can come in or out, unless Israel says it's OK, the fleeing through the backroads to the West notwithstanding (the co-ordinated evacuations and repatriations taking place right now are fine with Israel).

Hezbollah is trapped. Incapacitating the airport was one of the first and most vital steps toward that end. Strategically, it would have been foolish not to take out the airport right away.

AS
 
Darat said:
I think we have to be careful about the language we use to discuss these matters.

We do not have any evidence (or at least that I know of) that the Israeli's are targeting civilians. They are targeting what they consider to be military targets, sometimes they will make mistakes, sometimes to reach those military targets they will have to kill civilians not associated in any way with the aims of Hezbollah but that is not the same as targeting civilians. In this conflict only Hezbollah has targeted civilians.
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A civilian passenger car, heading away from the conflict, is, by default, a civilian passenger vehicle. If it is attacked on the chance that it is carrying military, then that is a pretty fine stretch to say it is not targetting civilians.

Also, whole suburbs have been attacked, where people live.
 
Elind said:
That would be a silly way to "send a message".
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Not necessarily. Israel has demanded that the Lebanese Army do what Israel sees as its job and secure and patrol the southern border with Israel. The Lebanese Army has failed and/or refused to do so.

Perhaps Israel is using force to make the Lebanese government choose sides. Help us disarm Hezbollah like you should be doing, or we'll make you regret it. Here's a little taste of what we can do to you and to show you that we mean it.

AS
 
a_unique_person said:
Lebanon is a fragile democracy. This may well make it fall, replacing it with what? Another Iran or Syria? Not much of an improvement on what is there now.
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Israel's and the US' interests differ here, in my opinion. The US seems primarily concerned with letting Israel blow off some steam and retaliate as it seems fit, within reason, but in the long run work to achieve "stability" in the region.

Stability in Lebanon is not necessarily Israel's long term goal. Israel is concerned with insuring its survival. In order to do that, it has to stop the coalition building among the radical Islamic states and terrorist groups and to flex its military muscles. It does not care what the international community thinks about whether its military operations are justified or not. Israel is lashing out and demonstrating to the Middle East and the world that it will not be bullied. Bully it and suffer the consequences, whatever they may be. France and Russia and the UN be damned.

I believe Israel is prepared to fight to the death. It really has nothing to lose. All older Jews there remember their near extermination 60 years ago, and they will not allow it to happen again while they are still breathing. They have instilled this sense of purpose in their young people as well. It is no accident that Israel has compulsory military service for all 18 year olds, and the rise of the most recent brand of militant, radical Islam originating primarily in Europe is a huge threat to the Jewish people in the Middle East. They are well aware of that, and I believe they have decided to take proactive steps to strike at the radicals and to strike hard.

After Lebanon is left in tatters, its neighbors might think twice before allowing the anti-Jewish hatred to continue to fester in their midst. Their survival may very well depend on Israel's survival. Should Israel be truly threatened and attacked with a full on war with a major Middle East power, it will not go down without taking its enemy down with it.

I think the US would intervene well before Israel's survival became in doubt. Israel's problem is really our own.

The rest of the world (except perhaps the UK) disagrees, but I don't see the US changing its stance for anyone.

AS
 
AmateurScientist said:
Israel's and the US' interests differ here, in my opinion. The US seems primarily concerned with letting Israel blow off some steam and retaliate as it seems fit, within reason, but in the long run work to achieve "stability" in the region.

Stability in Lebanon is not necessarily Israel's long term goal. Israel is concerned with insuring its survival. In order to do that, it has to stop the coalition building among the radical Islamic states and terrorist groups and to flex its military muscles. It does not care what the international community thinks about whether its military operations are justified or not. Israel is lashing out and demonstrating to the Middle East and the world that it will not be bullied. Bully it and suffer the consequences, whatever they may be. France and Russia and the UN be damned.
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It is in Israels interests to have stable, progressive states around it's borders, it's in all countries interests for that to happen. Look at the difference between a fragmented, unstable PA and Egypt or Jordan. To destroy Lebanese democracy would just further destabilise Israel itself.
 
a_unique_person said:
It is in Israels interests to have stable, progressive states around it's borders, it's in all countries interests for that to happen. Look at the difference between a fragmented, unstable PA and Egypt or Jordan. To destroy Lebanese democracy would just further destabilise Israel itself.
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Lebanon cannot be a stable, progressive state as long as it has an armed militia, recognized as a terrorist organization, operating independently of the Lebanese government and in fact controlled by Syria and Iran. It is certainly in Israel's interest, and in Lebanons, to destroy Hezbollah.

edited to change Hamas to Hezbollah.
 
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a_unique_person said:
It is in Israels interests to have stable, progressive states around it's borders, it's in all countries interests for that to happen. Look at the difference between a fragmented, unstable PA and Egypt or Jordan. To destroy Lebanese democracy would just further destabilise Israel itself.
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But Lebanese democracy is not really in power, as you just noted above. A chaotic Lebanon, in ruins and fighting amongt themselves, are less of a threat to Israel than a stable, radical Lebanon (the southern part) which is a proxy for Iran.

Israel is achieving a victory in that it is laying waste to much of its neighbor that Iran has been counting on to be the launching pad for its campaign to wipe Israel off the map. Any cease fire now, or diplomatic talks without complete disarmament, would be contrary to Israel's interests. It has nothing to gain from a cease fire. That's exactly why Hezbollah, Lebanon, and others are calling for one. It only benefits their side of this conflict and gives them time to regroup, reorganize, and rearm.

Israel must remain steady, show no mercy, and choke Lebanon until it taps out. Then it will be in a position to tell Iran and its allies where to shove their rockets.

I also think expanding Israel's borders at this opportunity is in its best interests as well. It can take advantage of Lebanon's weakened state and take dominion over it. With US and/or UN military support, Iran will have lost its invasion route into Israel from the north, and it will be facing a much larger, more powerful coalition force.

AS
 
WildCat said:
Lebanon cannot be a stable, progressive state as long as it has an armed militia, recognized as a terrorist organization, operating independently of the Lebanese government and in fact controlled by Syria and Iran. It is certainly in Israel's interest, and in Lebanons, to destroy Hezbollah.
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Ahh, OK, you got that quickly edited...

It is understood, since the beginning of "Summer Rains" in gaza, that Israel has an interest in destroying HAMAS, as well.

But, ultimately, these are popular movements, and difficult, if not impossible to eliminate.
Disarming them is the best that Israel can hope for.

  • A senior IDF military source said on Tuesday that Israel seeks "to significantly weaken Hezbollah but not crush it." He said that "it is impossible to crush a popular, religious movement."
    -- from Ha'aretz newspaper
 
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webfusion said:
Ahh, OK, you got that quickly edited...
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Yeah, it was a brain cramp. :boggled:

It is understood, since the beginning of "Summer Rains" in gaza, that Israel has an interest in destroying HAMAS, as well.

But, ultimately, these are popular movements, and difficult, if not impossible to eliminate.
Disarming them is the best that Israel can hope for.
  • A senior IDF military source said on Tuesday that Israel seeks "to significantly weaken Hezbollah but not crush it." He said that "it is impossible to crush a popular, religious movement."
    -- from Ha'aretz newspaper
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Destroy it as an effective fighting force is what I meant.
 
Destroy it as an effective fighting force is what I meant.

Understood.
That is what Israel is setting out to achieve, and apparently doing a very good job of it, so far.

  • The Jewish state in Palestine, Theodor Herzl wrote (back in those days when 'palestine' included lebanon), would be Europe's bulwark against Asia:

    "We can be the vanguard of culture against barbarianism."

Just look at the images of Hezbollah, and just try to tell me that isn't accurate even today!
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2003/04/17/image549891x.jpg
 
WildCat said:
edited to change Hamas to Hezbollah.
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But..now that you mention it...


As for the rest of your post, I agree. My fear is that they aren't sufficiently focused and will do too much damage to non-Hezbollah Lebanon. Those who have to bury the collateral damage are rarely understanding, no matter how worthy the cause.
 
Guys, this is not a sport, and the death count is not the score. This is war and innocent people are dying. Please keep this discussion to an acceptable level of decency. :mad:
 
Pardalis said:
Guys, this is not a sport, and the death count is not the score. This is war and innocent people are dying. Please keep this discussion to an acceptable level of decency. :mad:
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Only innocent people die in war?

Man this sport sucks. :boxedin:
 
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