Prayer and power

[Bri]

The reason there's no need for any other qualification is because that is the mother of all cop-outs. Translated it usually means "This crap doesn't make the least bit of sense to me either, and I can't find the least bit of logic to refute your criticisms, so I'm just going to stop thinking about it."

Perhaps, although I imagine that to a Christian it simply means that any attempt at coming up with a reason would only be guessing, and it is possible that we might never know or be able to understand God's reason if there is one.

That said, I've provided several possible reasons that if God exists, he might heal some ailments but not regrow an amputee's arm, particularly the possibility that God doesn't want us to know for certain that he exists.

-Bri

 

[RandFan]

Before I answer, keep in mind that because you cannot answer "why" doesn't mean that it isn't possible that God heals only certain afflictions and not others.

Yes Bri, that IS the point. It is possible that there is a God who choses not to answer certain prayers. That's a problem.

That said, I can think of a number of reasons that would likely be acceptable to Christians. Perhaps God wants there to be serious and definite consequences to purposely chopping off someone's arm. If that person could pray to grow it back, that would negate the consequences.

How about a child born without limbs? Why won't God heal them?

It is also possible that medicine only heals those afflictions that God wants healed. In other words, perhaps God works through natural means to achieve his goals. Perhaps God doesn't want us to know for certain that he exists (perhaps in order to ensure our ability to make free choices).

Then how on earth do you know the difference? See, the problem is that there is nothing to distinguish miracles from extraordinary circumstances.

This raises the question, if I can't tell the difference between a miracle and an extraordinary circumstance then what is the point?

I'm not actually claiming anything here, other than that there are possible explanations.

I want to thank you for saying so. I mean that sincerely. Unfortunately those explanations don't hold up. You must twist logic into a pretzel. Please pay close attention to what you are saying. God will only perform a miracle IF the miracle has non-miracle possibility.

Bri, that's not much of a miracle.

A better question is why does nobody except atheists interpret these passages in the way you're interpreting them? I cannot find a single reference on the Internet of a Christian who believes that God grants everything that is prayed for.

I'm sorry Bri but no one has suggested that God grants every prayer. The claim, and please pay close attention, is that there are some prayers that God NEVER grants.

NEVER ≠ EVERY

Do you see the difference? We are not saying "every" prayer we are saying "never" some prayers.

I agree that to me the passage seems pretty straightforward (particularly taken out of the context of the rest of the Bible).

Bri, I was a Christian for 20 years, I studied at seminary for 4 years. I was a full time Missionary for 2 years, I did not work or do anything else but proselytize. My missionary Bible is marked from front to back and contains many of my own footnotes. I have many volumes of books on the Bible and Bible study aids.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What "context of the rest of the Bible"?

You'd probably have to ask a Christian why they interpret the passage as they interpret it, but it is clear that few if any Christians interpret it the way you did.

Google "all things are possible". Start reading the links. I think it is clear that they do interpret the way I do. I suspect however that you don't understand how I interpret it.

 

[elliotfc]

Why you'll never be able to logically debate this issue with a devout believer...

If God answers my prayers: It's a miracle.

If God doesn't answer my prayers: It's God's will.

Is that inherently illogical? I don't think so. If it's reality, as we believe it is, then of course it's logical.

Illogical to some people? I guess so, maybe you can tell me why if you're interested, and not just say that it's illogical.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Interestingly one way of interpreting Catholic Doctrine is that the question posed "allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time" could be answered by Mary's Ascension to heaven? (I've never thought of this before so feel free to rain on my parade!)

Mary's Assumption, we believe that she died, was buried, and was assumed into heaven sometime between her being placed in the tomb, and the time when her tomb was opened so her body could be moved.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

When the miners were thought to be saved it was only by gods grace.

When all but one turned out to be dead god gets none of the blame.

Why the double standard?

We believe that God can, and sometimes does, intercede for us in a miraculous way, but we don't expect this to occur *at all times in response to every prayer*, and when God doesn't intercede in a miraculous way, we don't blame God, because of the reality, which we accept, of our existence. We believe that we are in exile, we are to suffer, we are to die, and that our deliverance from this exile is in Christ, and not in God's rescuing us from death every time we are faced with it in this life.

It's not a double standard by our way of thinking...and I doubt you can get around to our way of thinking, so I understand why you say it's a double standard in your way of thinking.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

How do you distinguish that from not answering a question?

Mere faith. A scientific instrument couldn't do the trick.

Prayer and "God's blessings" was a major reason I became a deist and ultimately an atheist. All of the evidence pointed to the incontrovertible fact that either God didn't answer prayers or his answers were indistinguishable from God not answering prayers.

We have faith that if we are open to God's grace we can detect in ways that we may never have possibly have expected.

I haven't prayed in more than a decade and I could not honestly tell you how my life is demonstrably different. If my life had been different I would have gone back to praying. For the longest time after I left the church and stopped praying much of me wanted to believe, to go to church and to pray.

Exactly, this was my point. If there were demonstrable differences when it came to prayer, then everybody would pray, then everybody would have demonstrable differences, then there would be this huge snowball effect driven by the demonstrable fact that prayer leads to demonstrable differences, and then what? If you pray for God to eliminate the moon, the demonstrable effect of that would be the vanishing of the moon. The purpose of God is not to satisfy our desires for demonstrable differences.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Because he said he would, and he's infallible.

I don't believe that God ever said that he would do anything we want him to do, end of, no expection and no qualification.

His infallibility is *not contingent on us*! He is infallible, or was infallible, before there was *us*. When we, the contigent, came into being, his infallibility did not become dependent on what we ask him to achieve! When God does not do what we tell him to, he is fallible because he doesn't succumb to our will, and he is infallible in spite of anything we say.

If Satan asks God to cease to exist, and God doesn't do so, that what, God is fallible because he doesn't do what Satan asks of him? When Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, Jesus did not display his fallibility in not demonstrably exercising his power.

You've had the quotations of his perfect and inviolable word earlier in the threads. Why then does he have to resort to loopholes to get out of his own promise? Seems awfully cheap to me.

His promise, if you extend it without limit, would appear to be absurd, wouldn't it? But God cannot be absurd. Therefore, it is this *charge* of yours that is absurd. Or, that's how it seems to me.

[edit] What tight spots? The situations in which according to god's promise he would fulfill prayers but in which he didn't. You hardly have to dig to find such situations.

He will fulfill prayers in his own way, not in our way. We are not God, and God is not subject to our decrees.

I think I've said the above statements several times already, to no effect apparently, so I'll not respond to the several posts to follow on pages 2 and 3 where this is the appropriate answer. We just disagree then. You think that God promises to do anything we want him to, as if he is a mere tool of our will, and I completely reject such a preposterous claim. Our understanding of God enables us to understand how to frame such statements. They aren't there to completely obliterate our notions of the attributes of God.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

How is this not a list of loopholes, excuses, escapes, evasions, and dodges...?

Call it what you want then. You want God to do anything people tell him to. I could give examples to demonstrate the absurdity of this...no wait, I already have. But you accept that. That's on you. Great. You can't understand why God won't...oh I dunno, turn the moon into a ball of pepperoni because some prays that. Why wouldn't God do that, you wonder, I mean, someone prayed for it! Accuse God of loopholes, et al., in the next one, and see where that gets you. Ask God why God didn't give us all eight arms because Joe in Cleveland Ohio prayed for that. Your judgments are meaningless to me, they have meaning to you, that's wonderful, I exit the circular discussion on this point.

-Elliot

 

[Bri]

Yes Bri, that IS the point. It is possible that there is a God who choses not to answer certain prayers. That's a problem.

What problem is there if God chooses not to answer certain prayers? I don't see God answering prayers to make gold fall from the sky, or to grow a third arm, or any number of other things that people might pray for, but you don't seem especially disturbed by those things.

Look, I agree with most of your points, but I think you're overstating the strength of your case. There are only two possibilities: God doesn't exist, or God exists. If God doesn't exist, then only "problem" is that modern medicine only knows how to heal certain ailments, but not regrow amputated limbs. If God exists, then it is possible that he allows medicine to heal certain ailments, but not to regrow amputated limbs. As long as it is possible that God's actions are for the greater good (i.e. there is a reason even if we cannot understand it), then I don't see the "problem" for Christians.

How about a child born without limbs? Why won't God heal them?

Again, I can list any number of reasons and we can argue back and forth about whether they are valid. But in the end, it could be a reason that we cannot understand since we're not omniscient. That might be unsettling, but it's completely in-line with Christian belief.

Then how on earth do you know the difference? See, the problem is that there is nothing to distinguish miracles from extraordinary circumstances.

This raises the question, if I can't tell the difference between a miracle and an extraordinary circumstance then what is the point?

What is the point of what?

I want to thank you for saying so. I mean that sincerely. Unfortunately those explanations don't hold up. You must twist logic into a pretzel. Please pay close attention to what you are saying. God will only perform a miracle IF the miracle has non-miracle possibility.

Bri, that's not much of a miracle.

Actually, I suggested the possibility that God uses nature to perform some or all miracles, perhaps in order to prevent us from knowing for certain of his existence. Of course, no explanation is necessary since Christians believe that we cannot fully understand why God does what God does. That said, there are plenty of possible explanations that can explain why not regrowing amputated limbs might be for the greater good.

It's only one possible explanation of course, but if true, it would be quite a miracle. If without God's intervention the medicine wouldn't work and the person wouldn't be healed, it seems like quite a miracle to me.

I'm sorry Bri but no one has suggested that God grants every prayer. The claim, and please pay close attention, is that there are some prayers that God NEVER grants.

NEVER ≠ EVERY

Do you see the difference? We are not saying "every" prayer we are saying "never" some prayers.

You acknowledge that God doesn't grant every prayer, but then you seem surprised that God doesn't grant certain categories of prayer. I'm not sure what the problem is unless you believe that God grants all prayers.

Bri, I was a Christian for 20 years, I studied at seminary for 4 years. I was a full time Missionary for 2 years, I did not work or do anything else but proselytize. My missionary Bible is marked from front to back and contains many of my own footnotes. I have many volumes of books on the Bible and Bible study aids.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What "context of the rest of the Bible"?

Google "all things are possible". Start reading the links. I think it is clear that they do interpret the way I do. I suspect however that you don't understand how I interpret it.

It is quite possible that I don't understand how you interpret it, and I apologize for supposing that I do understand how you're interpreting it. My point here is that you don't seem to have a problem with God not granting certain categories of prayer, such as gold falling from the sky or growing a third arm, as long as the possible reason seems obvious to you. When you were a Christian you likely didn't have a problem with God not answering certain types of prayers, since you probably had faith that God had a good reason for not doing so, even if the reason didn't seem obvious to you.

-Bri

 

[elliotfc]

What is meant by ask and ye shall receive? Receive what?

Look closely at verse 11. If the father asks for his dying child to be spared and the child dies how is that consistent with the scripture?

What does God give? Ask and ye shall receive WHAT?

Look at verse 13.

"how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

He will give the HOLY SPIRIT.

Ask and *it* will be given. *What*? The Holy Spirit. Nice to ask me to look at verse 11. Look at verse 13...which ends the specific passage.

Edited to add...you can also check out John 15:7. If you abide in me.....There's a reason we have 4 gospels.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

I went to a live miracle crusade and saw the anguished looks on the faces of the sick that didnt get heald. They expected miracles. They were outright promised miracles if they showed faith and "gave god his cake first". Meaning that if you give god everything and trust him to take care of you he will. Go ahead and drop the rent money in the bucket because you cant outgive Jesus.

Who promised these miracles? If you give God everything? Did they give to God, or the people making the promises? Did they trust in God, or in the people who they went to see?

If I pray to God, why do I need to see a person, like the people running the miracle crusade?

My distaste for such things may not be as great as yours, but it is quite large. Anyone who takes advantage of suffering people to profit is *not* acting in God's name, so why should God let himself be used by such people? Why should God grant miracles to people who use God to profit, like the persons who made money selling in front of the Temple?

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

I would just like to know how one would distinguish your version of God answering prayers with God not answering prayers at all? It's a sincere question and I think it begs an answer.

Someone looking from the outside? I'm not sure. Prayer is a personal thing, between the individual and God. Graces given by God may not be detectable by an outsider. Or by the individual for that matter.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

It doesn't take a god to do that. It takes YOU. If you believe in a god too, so be it. But extraordinary things are done by perfectly ordinary people every day. Let the scales fall from your eyes and see what's going on all around you, all the time. Some of it is quite extraordinary.

I don't think that fixing a flat tire is extraordinary.

Extraordinary things, to me, are things that basically never happen or can't be done.

Some people think that performing acts of kindness is extraordinary. Hell no! It's ordinary, so ordinary that every should and ought to do it. It's not beyond the ability of anyone to be kind to another.

That's just an example. I know the intent behind what you're saying...but it's a wee bit hippified. I think we are all *special*, I don't think we are all extraordinary. Billions of people. That's ordinary. There's nothing wrong with ordinary! Ordinary is great! Why knock ordinary by trumpeting extraordinary?

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

You can't have it both ways. Either God is omnimax and can do anything (and will if entreated humbly enough) or God is just ignoring the prayers of the dying, the terminal, the tortured and the deformed ... as well as those of the blessed.

No, he can answer the prayer of every dying person. Yeah! Nobody dies anymore, because you pray and God will do what you want him to do! God is *contingent* on us! We are greater than God! He has no control to disobey us!

It's not the *ability* that's at question. Does God *have* to do whatever we want him to do? No, no, and no. That is independent of his ability.

Now, you've given some pretty straightforward things. Can God be illogical and do some other sorts of things? Can he make a person's skin color both white and black at the same time? Can God make 2+2 equal to every number in the infinitity of all rational and hell, let's throw in irrational numbers as well?

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

@RandFan: *9_9* Well, it's so. People short-change themselves all the time, and I don't think that's good for the psyche. Miracles come from people, not gods.

So people can resurrect the dead?

Or, are you talking about things like showing a child how ride a bike a miracle? That's nice if that's what you're doing...but it takes the word miracle and castrates it completely. There are other words like "wonderful", "precious", "amazing", etc. that could get the job done.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Heya Bri, keep up the great work! -Elliot

 

[Bri]

Heya Bri, keep up the great work! -Elliot

Elliot, thank you. While I may not agree that Christianity is necessarily right, I think we do agree that it's not necessarily inconsistent.

-Bri

 

[elliotfc]

Elliot, thank you. While I may not agree that Christianity is necessarily right, I think we do agree that it's not necessarily inconsistent.

-Bri

I think ceo is the same way. Neither of you are Christians. I don't know if ceo is a theist or an agnostic. I think he is a lawyer though, the fiend.

-Elliot

 

[Meffy]

So people can resurrect the dead?

I should think so. Happens rather a lot these days. Think about it.

Also consider that medical miracles, engineering miracles, scientific miracles bring their own proof -- evidence. Near as I can tell, there's never been a reliably documented religious miracle.

[edit] What you see as "castration" (a nicely loaded word, isn't it?) I see from another angle. To me, miracles that have no evidence to back them up are weak, impotent, false, if you like you could even call them castrated. I'll stay with strong miracles, thank you, the ones that can be demonstrated to work.

 

[RandFan]

What problem is there if God chooses not to answer certain prayers? I don't see God answering prayers to make gold fall from the sky, or to grow a third arm, or any number of other things that people might pray for, but you don't seem especially disturbed by those things.

"Disturbed"? I'm not "disturbed". I think praying for gold to fall from the sky or to grow a third arm fall under the scripture. However there is clearly a distinction between children without arms and someone who would like a third arm, don't you agree?

There are only two possibilities: God doesn't exist, or God exists.

Agreed.

If God exists, then it is possible that he allows medicine to heal certain ailments, but not to regrow amputated limbs.

And here is the problem. Why? Why did it take thousands of years and scientific experimentation and trial and error to heal people? I don't see God anywhere in there. But assuming that god was involved, why is he so arbitrary at best and capricious at worst?

As long as it is possible that God's actions are for the greater good (i.e. there is a reason even if we cannot understand it), then I don't see the "problem" for Christians.

This is just a cop out.

...for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

What was meant by "nothing shall be impossible unto you"?

Again, I can list any number of reasons and we can argue back and forth about whether they are valid. But in the end, it could be a reason that we cannot understand since we're not omniscient. That might be unsettling, but it's completely in-line with Christian belief.

This is an abuse of logic. We have God, over and over declaring that "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible".

What does this mean? You say there is another interpretation, ok, then please provide for me that interpretation?

What is the point of what?

Miracles. If I can't tell a miracles from statistical anomaly then what is the point of Miracles? Uri Geller says he can bend spoons with his mind and he provides a demonstration that appears that he can bend spoons with his mind. James Randi performs the same demonstration and it looks exactly the same but we know that Randi isn't using his mind.

What good is a miracle that has a prosaic explanation?

Why does God promise "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible" if that is not what he meant? How else should I interpret the scripture? You keep saying that there is another why to interpret "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible". If that is true then one ought to provide the other interpretation.

Actually, I suggested the possibility that God uses nature to perform some or all miracles, perhaps in order to prevent us from knowing for certain of his existence.

Ok, but here is the problem, God said "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible". What good are naturally occurring miracles that would occur whether there was a God or there wasn't a God keeping in mind the promises made?

I'm not overstating my case. It really is logical to realize that there is a problem.

I took a course in statistics at the University. I came to understand that there always are, and always will be, anomalies. It is theoretically possible to survive falling from a plane without a parachute or any means of safety. If a person survives from a plane crash is that a miracle? Statistics says that we should expect such a thing every so many times a person falls out of a plane.

Of course, no explanation is necessary since Christians believe that we cannot fully understand why God does what God does. That said, there are plenty of possible explanations that can explain why not regrowing amputated limbs might be for the greater good.

But that flies in the face of what we have been promised.

...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

...and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Please define "all things" and "nothing shall be impossible"?

It's only one possible explanation of course, but if true, it would be quite a miracle. If without God's intervention the medicine wouldn't work and the person wouldn't be healed, it seems like quite a miracle to me.

Whose miracle? We know wow that medicine was developed. It is well documented. Medicine took centuries to get to where it is know. Scientists relied on the empirical method to get that medicine. Many people had to die before science was able to develop it. So why should God get the credit? No medicine is 100% perfect. Most if not all medicines carry risks and undesirable side effects.

You acknowledge that God doesn't grant every prayer, but then you seem surprised that God doesn't grant certain categories of prayer. I'm not sure what the problem is unless you believe that God grants all prayers.

1.) God doesn't grant every prayer.
2.) Some types of prayer God never answers.

1 and 2 are not equivalent. In light of Scripture I could construct an argument for 1.

In light of scripture I can't construct and argument for 2.