Prayer and power

[Darat]

Everything that is logically possible, but not the logically impossible as would be the case of allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time.

According to Wikipedia:

-Bri

That is a well balanced article, thanks.

Note that it says "mainstream", this is one of those arguments that as far as I know has never been subject to a "final" decision as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned.

Interestingly one way of interpreting Catholic Doctrine is that the question posed "allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time" could be answered by Mary's Ascension to heaven? (I've never thought of this before so feel free to rain on my parade!)

 

[Bri]

Note that it says "mainstream", this is one of those arguments that as far as I know has never been subject to a "final" decision as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned.

I don't know. Perhaps ceo_esq will grace us with his presence and provide some insight.

Interestingly one way of interpreting Catholic Doctrine is that the question posed "allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time" could be answered by Mary's Ascension to heaven? (I've never thought of this before so feel free to rain on my parade!)

Possibly, but that would allow the situation to be logically possible. I believe elliotfc was referring to God's ability to do the logically impossible.

-Bri

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

When the miners were thought to be saved it was only by gods grace.

When all but one turned out to be dead god gets none of the blame.

Why the double standard?

 

[JamesDillon]

When the miners were thought to be saved it was only by gods grace.

When all but one turned out to be dead god gets none of the blame.

Why the double standard?

I think Grayman has it right.

Good thing happens: It's a miracle, and proof of God's existence.
Bad thing happens: It's God's will.

It's the world's longest-running confirmation bias.

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

I think Grayman has it right.

Good thing happens: It's a miracle, and proof of God's existence.
Bad thing happens: It's God's will.

It's the world's longest-running confirmation bias.

Its like a coach claiming to be undefeated because he does not count the losses.

 

[RandFan]

Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways.

How do you distinguish that from not answering a question? Prayer and "God's blessings" was a major reason I became a deist and ultimately an atheist. All of the evidence pointed to the incontrovertible fact that either God didn't answer prayers or his answers were indistinguishable from God not answering prayers. I haven't prayed in more than a decade and I could not honestly tell you how my life is demonstrably different. If my life had been different I would have gone back to praying. For the longest time after I left the church and stopped praying much of me wanted to believe, to go to church and to pray.

 

[elliotfc]

"New, improved, omniscient-omnipotent-omnibenevolent GOD answers prayers!!! Not even the fall of the sparrow escapes his notice, so you can be sure he'll listen to you!"
(some restrictions may apply)

Grand absolutes lose their strength when hedged about with all these disclaimers and exceptions and -- let's be honest here -- excuses. If God is such a grand absolute why does he depend on escape clauses and weasel words to get him out of all those tight spots?

What tight spots?

Why should God do whatever we tell him to do?

-Elliot

 

[Meffy]

Though garbed in the enlivening raiments of satire, that story, if its background be even vaguely factual, remains a tearing heartbreaker.

Believer or no.

Doesn't help to know that tens or hundreds of thousands of real-life stories are very much like the satirical one in the Onion. :-(

When Winston Churchill was told that England's neck would be wrung like a chicken's (by a little guy with a funny mustache) he responded "Some chicken! Some neck!"

When considering things like so-called "answers to prayer" I have to think "Some answer! Some omnibenevolence!"

[edited for clearer wording]

 

[Meffy]

What tight spots?

Why should God do whatever we tell him to do?

Because he said he would, and he's infallible. You've had the quotations of his perfect and inviolable word earlier in the threads. Why then does he have to resort to loopholes to get out of his own promise? Seems awfully cheap to me.

[edit] What tight spots? The situations in which according to god's promise he would fulfill prayers but in which he didn't. You hardly have to dig to find such situations.

 

[elliotfc]

How do you explain the lines outside Benny Hinns crusades?

You don't have to see Benny Hinn to pray. If you want to pray, pray. If you want to see Benny Hill, I mean Hinn, go see Benny Hinn. I don't know why people want to go to see Benny Hinn. I would ask them why don't they just go to church and pray.

Why do the two christian channels I get concentrate on promising healings 24/7?

They are appealing to a select number of people. How many people watch those channels by the way?

Why does Pat Robertson constantly jawbone about the "law of reciprocity", if you give to Jesus he WILL give it back with interest.

Is he only talking about this life, or the next life as well?

Why do they constantly run sotries about people who gave to the 700 club and mysteriously got healed or found a large check in the mail?

I didn't say that prayers *never* get answered. If they do get answered, it is because it is God's will, and not ours.

Why dont mainstream chrisitans condem him if its not true?

Pat Robertson *does* get bashed my mainstream Christians.

My city is full of small time faith healers and "healing rooms". Are the people who run these events or participate in them christian?

Sure, or, probably.

I suppose the mega rich christian groups are supported by just a tiny minority? Or are they all fake christians doomed to hell?

If you're talking about the mega churches that seat thousands, I submit that such people believe that God answers prayers in his own way, and not in our way.

I don't know who is doomed to hell.

-Elliot

 

[Meffy]

How is this not a list of loopholes, excuses, escapes, evasions, and dodges...?

 

[RandFan]

What tight spots?

Why should God do whatever we tell him to do?

-Elliot

???

I'm confused.

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
--Luke 11:10 - 12

What is meant by ask and ye shall receive? Receive what?

Look closely at verse 11. If the father asks for his dying child to be spared and the child dies how is that consistent with the scripture?

 

[elliotfc]

If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything.

Darat, perhaps we can both agree to yield to newadvent.org on this one:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

I'll read this over lunch, then return to this question.

The answer is the same if you believe in an omnipotent God then he is not limited in any way (else he would not be omnipotent).

Christians believe that we can grasp God's nature in several ways...the Bible of course...the person of Jesus...and using our intellects as well. I don't know how a rationalist Christian like Pascal would consider my point. The question to me is not limiting God's power. We are not God's power. We are created with limitations. Now, God could *transform* me into something that could do some extraordinary things, or all of us into doing some extraordinary things.

In the *state* we are in, God answering all of our prayers is out of order. What if we prayed for God to stop being God, and to make one of us God instead? What if we prayed for God to destroy all of the universe including himself? It's not a question of omnipotence as much as why God should jump through our hoops. Why should God do something just because we tell him to do it?

I am of course arguing this in a very superficial manner since the limitations or not of God's power is another subject that many Chrsitians have argued over for many centuries. Some do conclude as you seem to do that there are some things God cannot do, whilst others conclude that God can do anything.

If we may drop the omnipotent thing for just a bit...given our understanding of the nature of God, why should God answer every prayer, particularly the ones that just boggle the mind, the ones that would seem to create a most chaotic and untenable existence?

That is up to you and what you believe. However your OP seemed to be criticising Members for not understanding Christianity yet in doing so seemed to demonstrate that you were quite unaware of the depth of Christian theology and the extent of the on going debate about aspects of Christian faith such as prayer.

I am criticizing members for not following through with the "why doesn't God answer prayer" bit as far as it can go.

-Elliot

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

I went to a live miracle crusade and saw the anguished looks on the faces of the sick that didnt get heald. They expected miracles. They were outright promised miracles if they showed faith and "gave god his cake first". Meaning that if you give god everything and trust him to take care of you he will. Go ahead and drop the rent money in the bucket because you cant outgive Jesus.

You can read the full account here http://www.lfplc.net/crusade.htm and downlaod the evidence since I recorded the event. Late night on CBN the local loon churches run shows. They all promise miracles for money and the people that pay n pray expect personal divine healng. The fact that Benny Hinn is still standing is strong proof against the biblical god.

 

[RandFan]

I am criticizing members for not following through with the "why doesn't God answer prayer" bit as far as it can go.

-Elliot

I would just like to know how one would distinguish your version of God answering prayers with God not answering prayers at all? It's a sincere question and I think it begs an answer.

 

[Meffy]

Now, God could *transform* me into something that could do some extraordinary things, or all of us into doing some extraordinary things.

Elliot, you are already something that can do extraordinary things! You're a living, thinking person, capable of righting injustices and fixing flat tires; locating a neighboring galaxy using nothing more than binoculars -- or even just your own eyes; using a planet-spanning communications network to engage in discussion with people you'll never meet... just think of the extraordinary things you're able to do, or could learn to do.

It doesn't take a god to do that. It takes YOU. If you believe in a god too, so be it. But extraordinary things are done by perfectly ordinary people every day. Let the scales fall from your eyes and see what's going on all around you, all the time. Some of it is quite extraordinary.

 

[Meffy]

@Anti_Hypeman: That kind of sick exploitation of those least deserving of such abuse... it just makes my blood boil. Almost makes me wish supernatural retribution were for real.

 

[RandFan]

Elliot, you are already something that can do extraordinary things! You're a living, thinking person, capable of righting injustices and fixing flat tires; locating a neighboring galaxy using nothing more than binoculars -- or even just your own eyes; using a planet-spanning communications network to engage in discussion with people you'll never meet... just think of the extraordinary things you're able to do, or could learn to do.

It doesn't take a god to do that. It takes YOU. If you believe in a god too, so be it. But extraordinary things are done by perfectly ordinary people every day. Let the scales fall from your eyes and see what's going on all around you, all the time. Some of it is quite extraordinary.

 

[cgordon]

You can't have it both ways. Either God is omnimax and can do anything (and will if entreated humbly enough) or God is just ignoring the prayers of the dying, the terminal, the tortured and the deformed ... as well as those of the blessed.

Or ... maybe ... there is no god and we find our own answers and have to deal with reality without hope provided by an invisible superfriend.

 

[Meffy]

@RandFan: *9_9* Well, it's so. People short-change themselves all the time, and I don't think that's good for the psyche. Miracles come from people, not gods.