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[Moderated Thread] CFLarsen's and SteveGrenard's Pedophilia Thread

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Does Bullough promote pedophilia in that book, or does the fan describe him as doing that?

There's an old adage that goes, if it has a long hairy tail, four legs, a mane, and makes a "whinny" noise, it could be a four-legged scnarkleph from the planet Hammerskjold, but it's probably a horse. There's a pattern here. The fan describes the book as the voice of the repressed pedophile. Bullough contributed a section to that book. Neither of us have read it, so neither of our opinions is really supported by any direct "facts". My opinion is based on Bulloughs clear pattern of involvement with entities whose sole mission is to promote pedophilia. Your opinion is based on...?

Why on Earth would you think that? The psychological/psychiatric journals are full of articles written by psychologers/psychiatrists about necrophiliacs, sociopaths, serial killers, you name it. Are those authors also promoting these things?

If those authors pointedly submit their articles to books like "Serial Murder Is NOT A Crime!" or "The Battle Against the Anti-Necrophile Hysteria", then yes, chances are they're probably promoting those things. Bullough certainly submitted some research articles regarding adults who sexually abuse children, but he ALSO wrote chapters for books whose purposes were specifically to promote pedophilia as a GOOD thing; and he consulted for ten years for a magazine with the same expressed purpose. Four legs, hairy tale, mane. Maybe it's a zebra...?
 
It's not a question of wanting to. If my job required me to do it, I would do it. I don't pick and choose my assignments.

As I understand it, it's a legal organization?

Sure, it's a legal organization. I'd still tell my boss I'm not doing it. Principles should come before money.
 
In which case, you cannot criticize me for it either.

Correct?
I'm following your example of skepticism CFLarsen. Skeptically I can't answer your question.


We now know that no one has to answer any questions, esspecially ones that would lead one to confront their position on an issue. Answering question, such as a Larsen List, isn't the skeptical thing to do. Rather one should skeptically ignore the questions. This is polite and civil IMO.
 
Who said anything about no standards can be applied? I'm not going to discuss your idiotic strawmen.


What I said:

Applying my standard is better than applying no standard.

No straw-man there.

You are free to suggest your own standard.

No straw-man there either.

It seems you are mistaken, do you care to address the issue now?



Edited to correct quote
 
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I'm following your example of skepticism CFLarsen. Skeptically I can't answer your question.


We now know that no one has to answer any questions, esspecially ones that would lead one to confront their position on an issue. Answering question, such as a Larsen List, isn't the skeptical thing to do. Rather one should skeptically ignore the questions. This is polite and civil IMO.

Let's see if you can live up to that.

Sure, it's a legal organization. I'd still tell my boss I'm not doing it. Principles should come before money.

In a perfect world, sure.

There's an old adage that goes, if it has a long hairy tail, four legs, a mane, and makes a "whinny" noise, it could be a four-legged scnarkleph from the planet Hammerskjold, but it's probably a horse. There's a pattern here. The fan describes the book as the voice of the repressed pedophile. Bullough contributed a section to that book. Neither of us have read it, so neither of our opinions is really supported by any direct "facts". My opinion is based on Bulloughs clear pattern of involvement with entities whose sole mission is to promote pedophilia. Your opinion is based on...?

...additional information about the whole body of his professional work. Bullough was clearly a capacity in various psychology subjects. Has he, in his own writings, ever published anything that would even indicate that he promotes pedophilia? No.

Would he, as a capacity, be asked to share his knowledge? Yes.

If those authors pointedly submit their articles to books like "Serial Murder Is NOT A Crime!" or "The Battle Against the Anti-Necrophile Hysteria", then yes, chances are they're probably promoting those things. Bullough certainly submitted some research articles regarding adults who sexually abuse children, but he ALSO wrote chapters for books whose purposes were specifically to promote pedophilia as a GOOD thing; and he consulted for ten years for a magazine with the same expressed purpose. Four legs, hairy tale, mane. Maybe it's a zebra...?

That assumes that if a scientist writes about something and doesn't express his opinion against it, he is automatically for it.

When you peruse PubMed, do the authors express their opinions for or against whatever it is they are studying?

Echoing your comments from another thread, a government organization that put people in consentration camps based on their religion or race was legal at one time in certain countries, would you provide consulting for it?

No, of course not.

So why NAMBLA, you ask next? I think I would have some difficulties with it, but if the job required it, I would do it. NAMBLA is a legal organization, and - AFAIK - are merely using their constitutional right to speak their mind. If they practiced what they preached, they wouldn't be legal.

But, we are not discussing me, but Bullough.
 
It's not a question of wanting to. If my job required me to do it, I would do it. I don't pick and choose my assignments.

1. You accept no repsonsibility for where you work. Yes or no?
2. Consquently, you would work for NAMBLA. Yes or no?

As I understand it, it's a legal organization?

What does that matter? You don't pick and choose your assignments.
 
1. You accept no repsonsibility for where you work. Yes or no?
2. Consquently, you would work for NAMBLA. Yes or no?



What does that matter? You don't pick and choose your assignments.

We are not discussing me, but Bullough.
 
Let's see if you can live up to that.
Before being exposed to your skeptical teachings, I'd ask you if you believe that skepticism is about NOT answering questions. Esspecially hard questions that could lead one to confront their own position on a subject. But now, after learning from your great skepticism, I know you'd skeptically ignore questions.

From that, I now know that assuming how you'd answer is the correct path to take. So I already know that you agree that skepticism isn't about answering any questions at all, esspecially hard questions that could lead one to confront their own position on any subject.

Also from observing your skeptical ways, I know understand that questions are only for believers, fundies, and woo-woos to answer. Having that double standard is the skeptical path, and is correct.

This is polite and civil IMO. I thank you for teaching me, a much lower wannabe skeptic, the correct path to walk.
 
Nice dodge.
It isn't a dodge at all. It is skepticism being practiced; and not by just any skeptic, but a great one.

As shown from CFLarsen's actions, and his comments to me in this thread, skepticism is NOT answering hard questions that could lead one to confront their position on a subject. This is polite and civil IMO.
 
It isn't a dodge at all. It is skepticism being practiced; and not by just any skeptic, but a great one.

As shown from CFLarsen's actions, and his comments to me in this thread, skepticism is NOT answering hard questions that could lead one to confront their position on a subject. This is polite and civil IMO.

Actually, I find you can discern answers from Claus in what he does NOT say, which is sort of a zen-like logical conclusion to his non-answers; by not answering, Claus answers loud and clear.

Study upon these mysteries, with the confidence of the convereted that Claus would indeed work for NAMBLA. ;)
 
after doing a bit of research I've come to the conclusion that Vern Bullough was a sex researcher and certainly not a pedophile or a promoter of child abuse or pedophilia.

In his own words he defends what he does:
http://www.tegenwicht.org/13_rbt_eng/p_smear.htmhttp://206.225.95.123/forumlive/source


his views in a nutshell:

Vern Bullough
accepts the conclusions of Wilson & Cox (1983) that people with pedophilic feelings are quite normal people who not should be demonized. Some behavior might be socially incorrect, but that is not the same as pathological. As long as these people limit themselves to have fantasies, nothing is wrong. If some people have to change their behavior, this is a case of re-educating those people, not of treatment or curing an illness.
source: http://home.wanadoo.nl/ipce/library_two/files/asb.htm

his obituary: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-bullough2jul02,1,6881704.story?ctrack=1&cset=true



and what exactly is Paidika? : Paidika is a scholarly journal which seeks to examine the range of cultural, historical, psychological, and literary issues pertaining to consensual adult-child sexual relationships and desires. The Journal is attempting to create a 'history of record'. The Journal is subject to academic peer-review and is subscribed to by prestigious institutions such as the British Library and by the Library of Congress.
source: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:73pMdBXji4QJ:www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/Paidika.html+Paidika&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&ie=UTF-8
 
Wow, Harry, you rock!

Thank you for bringing evidence to the discussion, I look forward to looking through it!
 
after doing a bit of research I've come to the conclusion that Vern Bullough was a sex researcher and certainly not a pedophile or a promoter of child abuse or pedophilia.

In his own words he defends what he does:
http://www.tegenwicht.org/13_rbt_eng/p_smear.htmhttp://206.225.95.123/forumlive/source


his views in a nutshell:

Vern Bullough
accepts the conclusions of Wilson & Cox (1983) that people with pedophilic feelings are quite normal people who not should be demonized. Some behavior might be socially incorrect, but that is not the same as pathological. As long as these people limit themselves to have fantasies, nothing is wrong. If some people have to change their behavior, this is a case of re-educating those people, not of treatment or curing an illness.
source: http://home.wanadoo.nl/ipce/library_two/files/asb.htm

his obituary: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-bullough2jul02,1,6881704.story?ctrack=1&cset=true



and what exactly is Paidika? : Paidika is a scholarly journal which seeks to examine the range of cultural, historical, psychological, and literary issues pertaining to consensual adult-child sexual relationships and desires. The Journal is attempting to create a 'history of record'. The Journal is subject to academic peer-review and is subscribed to by prestigious institutions such as the British Library and by the Library of Congress.
source: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:73pMdBXji4QJ:www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/Paidika.html+Paidika&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&ie=UTF-8

Facts. Don't ya just love'em? :)

I predict that Steve will not admit he was wrong.
 
Let me remind Members - attack the argument not the Member
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
after doing a bit of research I've come to the conclusion that Vern Bullough was a sex researcher and certainly not a pedophile or a promoter of child abuse or pedophilia.

In his own words he defends what he does:
http://www.tegenwicht.org/13_rbt_eng/p_smear.htm


his views in a nutshell:

Vern Bullough
accepts the conclusions of Wilson & Cox (1983) that people with pedophilic feelings are quite normal people who not should be demonized. Some behavior might be socially incorrect, but that is not the same as pathological. As long as these people limit themselves to have fantasies, nothing is wrong. If some people have to change their behavior, this is a case of re-educating those people, not of treatment or curing an illness.
source: http://home.wanadoo.nl/ipce/library_two/files/asb.htm

his obituary: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-bullough2jul02,1,6881704.story?ctrack=1&cset=true



and what exactly is Paidika? : Paidika is a scholarly journal which seeks to examine the range of cultural, historical, psychological, and literary issues pertaining to consensual adult-child sexual relationships and desires. The Journal is attempting to create a 'history of record'. The Journal is subject to academic peer-review and is subscribed to by prestigious institutions such as the British Library and by the Library of Congress.
source: [URL="http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:73pMdBXji4QJ:www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/Paidika.html+Paidika&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&ie=UTF-8"]http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:73pMdBXji4QJ:www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/Paidika.html+Paidika&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&ie=UTF-8[/URL]
Thanks,

Pedophilia is one of those issues that is very difficult to view in a dispassionate way. I find it very hard. Like most people I connect it with kidnapping, abuse and rape. Since I think it difficult for most minors to give informed consent I find the notion of all pedophilia unacceptable.

That said, any researcher or clinician in the field should be able to look at this issue dispassionately.

As distasteful and disturbing as I may find it -

1.) It is possible for a man to fantasize about sex with children without being a threat to children.

2.) Such fantasies alone are not indicative of pathology.

3.) It is possible for a minor and an adult to have sexual relations that are not harmful to the child.

That being said, let's keep sexual relations between consenting adults.

Edited to correct a serious typo. Thanks Mr. Skinny.
 
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For every point of view, there is an opposing one and here are two columns which refute the notion that Paidika et al and their "movement" is not anything but an organization/movement that condones and excuses pedophilia and seeks to normalize and decriminalize it which, of course, is their privilege. The scientific literature created by the ruminations of “sex researchers” is believed to be junk science by many in the mainstream.

You can agree or not agree with them.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=16148

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=16072

Facts or what’s true and what’s not, obviously, will be difficult to come by in this debate.

I personally am also entitled to a point of view which squares with the notion that Prometheus should not be publishing porn while masquerading as a serious and scholarly publishing house and which happens to be a private firm that draws heavily on the resources of SUNY Buffalo, a public university, through the connections of its owner, Paul Kurtz. Their roots and philosophy obviously go deep, and by association were allied with the work of the late Vern Bullough who , I am sure, by no mere coincidence, happened to be rewarded with a CSICOP Fellowship.

Some of you said you have no problem w/Prometheus publishing porn. For myself,my objection earns me attacks by Claus Larsen,no longer a taxpayor in New York State.

On the subject of the false memory syndrome and its organization, sure, planted false memories, hypnotic or otherwise, are a terrible thing but this organization also tries to mitigate the tragedy of child molestation by saying most of it is based on faulty memories or exaggerations. I think the most egregious cases are more than that, they are outright fabrications of adults trying to exact monetary settlements, a phenomenon
nowhere more apparent than in the thousands of pedophile priest accusation cases we have heard about over the past ten years or so. Yet the fms people
have done nothing to investigate or study the accused priests or their accusers which means they operate on a dichotomous double-standard.

I have presented the evidence asked for.
  • The list of suspect Prometheus publications.
  • The Paidika connection to the late Prof. Bullough
  • The CSCIOP connection to the late Prof. Bullough
  • The Prometheus/CSICOP connection.
  • The Prometheus connection to Prof. Bullough
You can dress all this up anyway you want. I have done what I was goaded into doing by Mr. Larsen so you can thank him for that.Not for setting out doing what I wanted to do which is without any truth save that now it is Larsen's new lament.


I was clearly not interested in pursuing this and resisted doing so as long as I could. Paranoia, a highly destructive behavior, on the part of some will subscribe otherwise. I am done with this discussion and others can make up their mind in any fashion they want. Thank you
all for a lively discussion of the issues.
 
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I have presented the evidence asked for.
  • The list of suspect Prometheus publications.
  • The Paidika connection to the late Prof. Bullough
  • The CSCIOP connection to the late Prof. Bullough
  • The Prometheus/CSICOP connection.
  • The Prometheus connection to Prof. Bullough
You did indeed. I think there's plenty of material from opinions on both sides of the issue for people to make up their own mind.

Now about that NJ budget...
 
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