Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

[Apollyon]

Do not forget that none have produced an alternative explanation for what it is other than rebar.

Do not forget that we have produced an alternate explanation - that it is conduit and/or plumbing.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Each building had a square floor
plate, 207 feet 2 inches long on each side. Corners were chamfered 6 feet 11 inches. Nearly an acre of floor
space was provided at each level. A rectangular service core, with overall dimensions of approximately 87 feet
by 137 feet, was present at the center of each building, housing 3 exit stairways, 99 elevators, and 16
escalators. Figure 2-1 presents a schematic plan of a representative aboveground floor.

http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf

 

[Christophera]

No, he doesn't say "floor beams."

Eagar correctly calls them "floor joists." They are also properly referred to in other studies as "floor trusses."

So what straw man are you going to come up with next to avoid providing proof of your claim that the columns were butt-welded?

Please stop with your hand-waving and answer.

See the butt weld in the interior box column to the right and above the floor beam intersection. It can be distinguished by the different texture from grinding the weld smooth and the coloration of the steel from the heat of the weld.

 

[Christophera]

Do not forget that we have produced an alternate explanation - that it is conduit and/or plumbing.

Tube will not bend like that without kinking. No way!

 

[Christophera]

more than cheaper and easier, i think it would be mandatory, otherwise the core would be sitting on the floor trusses.

How does the core get outside the core area to sit on the trusses? Absurd.

 

[Pardalis]

What is a tube?

What does it mean in engeneering terms?

 

[Christophera]

How was it compromised? If you mean the wiretaps and PATRIOT Act, I agree.

Amazing! The principles of the nation are recognized in some part!!!!!!

 

[kevin]

Do not forget that none have produced an alternative explanation for what it is other than rebar.

what is the scale of this photo so I can measure the "rebar" and verify it is exactly 3" on 4' centers?

Can you prove that is from the interior of the building and not the exterior load bearing walls.

How could I tell the difference in this photo between 3" rebar and a 3" conduit? How could I tell the difference in this photo between 3" rebar and the elevator guides you claim exist in another photo? Speaking of this other photo, what insane person would install elevator guides before the elevator shafts were built? What did they attach them to? The nearest concrete, according to you, is 7 stories down.

 

[Hellbound]

Tube will not bend like that without kinking. No way!

Plastic, plenum-rated conduit will.

For that matter, metal tubes heated to a high temperature will.

And some are likely already curved, to go around ventilation shafts, columns, other cable runs, etc.

And thick elevator cable could be that stiff, the stuff isn't fishing line. Yeah, it rolls onto reels, but the reels aren't little 12 inch ones, they're rather large.

IN any case, the OTHER picture you keep posting as being "3" rebar on 4' centers" has been conclusively shown to be a portion of the outer wall attached to a still standing corner spire. So let's droip that one now, shall we? Repeating your disproven assumption over and over is not providing additional evidence.

 

[Apollyon]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2246&stc=1&d=1150909669[/qimg]

See the butt weld in the interior box column to the right and above the floor beam intersection. It can be distinguished by the different texture from grinding the weld smooth and the coloration of the steel from the heat of the weld.

Is there something wrong with you?

Seriously?

I already responded to your bogus claim of that picture showing a butt-weld. What that shows is where the standoffs for the beam clips are welded on. If you take the picture into Photoshop and blow it up a bit you can plainly see the raised surface. It the same sort of clips clearly shown on the far end of the column in this construction photo linked previously:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1716047&postcount=1208

Tube will not bend like that without kinking. No way!

It can easily bend like that when heated, which it was because jet fuel had gone down the elevator shafts.

And you actually claim the concrete core was 17' thick?

 

[kevin]

Plastic, plenum-rated conduit will.

If it's conduit it could've been INSTALLED curved. Cable has to exit the risers some how and 90 degree intersections are bad for cables. They bend them with a nice soft radius.

 

[Christophera]

Is there something wrong with you?

Seriously?

I already responded to your bogus claim of that picture showing a butt-weld. What that shows is where the standoffs for the beam clips are welded on. If you take the picture into Photoshop and blow it up a bit you can plainly see the raised surface. It the same sort of clips clearly shown on the far end of the column in this construction photo linked previously:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1716047&postcount=1208


It can easily bend like that when heated, which it was because jet fuel had gone down the elevator shafts.

And you actually claim the concrete core was 17' thick?

The beam clips are still on the column indexing the beams!!!!!! And tubing is LESS likely to bend smoothly when heated. Stick with pencil pushing.

I show the core wall at base is 17 feet thick.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The beam clips are still on the column indexing the beams!!!!!! And tubing is LESS likely to bend smoothly when heated. Stick with pencil pushing.

I show the core wall at base is 17 feet thick.

The heat-induction pipe bending process was originally used during World War II to harden surfaces of gears and ball bearings. The pipe bending industry uses the heat-induction pipe bending process by placing an induction coil around the pipe to be bent. The induction coil heats a narrow, circumferential section of pipe to a temperature of 800 to 2,200 F, depending on the material type. At proper pipe bending temperature, the pipe passes through the induction coil at a slow, gradual rate as the bending force is applied.
custom pipe bending

After bending occurs, the heated area is quenched by a water or air spray. This pipe bending process produces a quality product, however its typical cost is higher than other methods. Pipe sizes up to 48" outside diameter and larger are commonly bent by this pipe bending method for applications including power plants, highway road signs and petroleum pipelines.

http://www.ttb.com/process.htm

 

[Hellbound]

If it's conduit it could've been INSTALLED curved. Cable has to exit the risers some how and 90 degree intersections are bad for cables. They bend them with a nice soft radius.

Yeah, I mentioned the installation.

Also, on cable, it would have some stiffness to it, and 90 degree bends could easily happen during a collapse. I suspect it is conduit, though, but so far I don't think elevator cabling is necessarily out.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I have carefully read the first half of this thread, and not being an engineer have, for the sanity of my mind, had to skip past the last half. I have only one thing to say.

Here's an excellent recipe for steak sauce.

Get a pan nice and hot, and sear the outside of the steak on all sides. While the steak cooks in the oven, use the juices in the pan as a base. Add a couple ounces of port wine. Burn off the alcohol (it will make a lovely purple flame). Add a couple ounces of beef gravy and a spoonful or two of tomato paste. Mash the paste well in. At the very end, melt a few ounces of butter into it. Strain the result and pour it over the steak. It also works well on ground beef.

 

[TheFeds]

Firstly, review the U.S. government's report linked to by Arkan_Wolfshade. You'll note that it states:

The core consisted of 5-inch concrete fill on metal deck supported by floor framing of rolled structural shapes, in turn supported by a combination of wide flange shape and box-section columns. Some of these columns were very large, with cross-sections measuring 14 inches wide by 36 inches deep. In upper stories, these rectangular box columns transitioned into heavy rolled wide flange shapes.

There are dozens of mentions of core columns in that document, but this is the only mention of the word concrete in any sort of relationship with the core. 5" concrete fill on a metal deck does not in any way describe a core created by slip-form concrete extrusion. In fact, see the attached figure, which depicts this construction method. Observe that it does not involve concrete walls. If concrete walls were significant in the construction of the core, don't you think that that fact should have been mentioned? In fact, the only component of the core that is concrete is this floor (aside from perhaps the base of the foundation on the first basement level).

Note also in the schematic, that there are locations for structural columns indicated, but there are no positions for load-bearing concrete walls. Standard architectural practice would dictate that these be indicated with thick black lines, with widths that are correctly scaled to the drawing. No such things are present. Contrast this with the thinner lines, which represent other walls within the structure—it is clear that the intent of this drawing is to show the position of the walls within the core. Why then would the most significant walls be absent? So, can you provide a schematic which contradicts the one presented above, and shows a significant thickness of concrete arranged in vertical walls?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2246&stc=1&d=1150909669

See the butt weld in the interior box column to the right and above the floor beam intersection. It can be distinguished by the different texture from grinding the weld smooth and the coloration of the steel from the heat of the weld.

Those appear to be the vertical columns, not floor trusses, judging by their size and shape. (See the above link for information on the profiles used, and their positions.) And in any event, there is a fundamental problem with using a butt weld in the location that you seem to have described (if you think I'm looking at it wrongly, circle the spot, and re-post). No engineer would permit a crucial member to be butt-welded in a location where it could clearly experience tensile, compressive and shear loading, without significant additional reinforcement (such as bolted gussets). Furthermore, note the proximity of distorted steel members to the undamaged weld. How do you propose that the weld withstood these forces, allowing the rest of the attached beam to deflect catastrophically, despite the fact that in common steel construction, welds are the weakest, softest and most ductile regions? If that were actually a butt weld, it would have failed first.

 

[Christophera]

http://www.ttb.com/process.htm

You can't be serious. That is a highly controlled set of circumstances that a a man on the ground cannot reproduce, let alone happen by accident inside of a falling mass of steel debri 700 feet below the fire with a few spots hot enough to provide the required heat. OMG! The only bend in pipe or tube that a man can do with heat successfully without collapsing the tube is a wrinkle bend. A series of bends incrementing the entire curve.

Apparently the lie the murderers are hiding behind is so important to support that you are willing to sacrifice your marginal credibility.

 

[Christophera]

Those appear to be the vertical columns, not floor trusses, judging by their size and shape.

Check reading and comprehension skills. I said column and beam, not floor trusses. Only raw evidence is qualified for this discussion.

 

[Christophera]

Originally Posted by Huntsman :
Plastic, plenum-rated conduit will.

If it's conduit it could've been INSTALLED curved. Cable has to exit the risers some how and 90 degree intersections are bad for cables. They bend them with a nice soft radius.

I do not know what, "Plastic, plenum-rated" conduit is, but I seriously doubt it existed in 1967.

Check the size of the loop formed by the bar sticking out the top center of the core wall at base, it is perhaps 15 feet in diamter and close to a 360 degree bend.

How does this happen at the bottom of a supposed collapse of debri with weak conduit or pipe? It is super rigid and there are more than one of them. No chance of this being anything but something very strong that was heavily heated and stressed in a uniform fashion over its length except one side was much hotter.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

You can't be serious. That is a highly controlled set of circumstances that a a man on the ground cannot reproduce, let alone happen by accident inside of a falling mass of steel debri 700 feet below the fire with a few spots hot enough to provide the required heat. OMG! The only bend in pipe or tube that a man can do with heat successfully without collapsing the tube is a wrinkle bend. A series of bends incrementing the entire curve.

Apparently the lie the murderers are hiding behind is so important to support that you are willing to sacrifice your marginal credibility.

Huntsman said

...
For that matter, metal tubes heated to a high temperature will.
...

Apollyon said

...
It can easily bend like that when heated, which it was because jet fuel had gone down the elevator shafts.
...

You replied with

...
And tubing is LESS likely to bend smoothly when heated.
...

So, I provided an example of heat being used to bend tubing. I did not claim those conditions were, or were not, present in WTC 1 or 2. Do not put words in my mouth. Do not take my words out of context.