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Hitler and Stalin

But so am I averse to this, of course. Rather, I define my religious beliefs with reference to the fact that I have no belief in God..

A good post, compared to some of yours:rolleyes:

However I do think the issue always tends to be overcomplicated. If something sentient created the universe, or caused it to be created (slight difference there, but irrelevant) then it doesn't follow that that is a god to be worshipped even though it may be one defintion of a god. We have have no way of knowing in any case.

What is important in our short lives is whether we believe there is a god "watching us" and smiling when we worship (or saying "sucker"), or if there is no such being and we are on our own, to make of it what we can.

The latter is an atheist.
 
Well, there is an epistemological question here as well as a theological one.

I take a strong empirical line on epistemology. For me, the following statements are equivalent:

* I have looked under my bed for evidence of tigers, and I have no evidence that there are tigers under my bed..
* I have looked under my bed for evidence of tigers, and I have evidence that there are no tigers under my bed.
* I do not believe that there are tigers under my bed.
* I believe that there are no tigers under my bed.
* I deny that there are tigers under my bed.
* There are no tigers under my bed.

When I say "equivalent", I mean that each means no more and no less than the other...
In the case of tigers and my bed, I agree that the statements you have listed above are roughly equivalent. But that is because of a special circumstance in the example you created. I live in rural Tennessee, where tigers are not normally found (outside zoos) and for one to somehow turn up, get into my room, and get under the bed -- all without leaving a trace of evidence -- would be extraordinary. So for all practical purposes, the statements I have no reason to believe there is a tiger under my bed and I believe there is not a tiger under my bed are the same.

But let's consider an example where that circumstance doesn't hold. Suppose, for instance, that my toothbrush goes missing. I have no reason to suspect it would be under the bed, since that is not where I normally put it, nor is it somewhere the toothbrush would easily migrate to. Therefore the statement I have no reason to believe that my toothbrush is under the bed is quite reasonable. I don't think it is under the bed is also a reasonable statement -- meaning roughly the same as the first statement.

But what about I know that the toothbrush is not under the bed or I deny that the toothbrush is under the bed? No, those are not the same. Having no reason to believe something is not the same as having reason to believe something is false. Confusing the two often leads to errors where people adamantly maintain something can't be true which later on does turn out to be true.

If I do a thorough search under the bed and do not see a toothbrush, that provides evidence it is not there. At that point, it is reasonable to disbelieve that the toothbrush is there. Prior to the search, it was reasonable to lack belief, but unreasonable to disbelieve.

A person may have no reason to believe something (in which case it is reasonable to maintain as the default position a lack of belief in that something) but that is not the same as knowing to a reasonable certainty the thing in question is false. That is why it is reasonable to be an agnostic on some questions (I have no reason to believe this is true, so I don't particularly believe in it) and an atheist on others (I have reason to believe this is false, so I disbelieve in it.

In life, there are many cases where it is reasonable to disbelieve (rather than simply lack belief), and there are many cases where it is reasonable to simply lack belief (rather than go further and disbelieve). It is a useful distinction to understand. Lacking belief, and disbelieving, are quite different.
 
This is exactly why I specified the condition that I have looked under the bed and so am not simply ruling out the presence of tigers a priori.
 
This is exactly why I specified the condition that I have looked under the bed and so am not simply ruling out the presence of tigers a priori.
Yes. I agree that in the example you have created all the statements you list are roughly equivalent. What I am saying is that this does not hold true for all examples.

My point is that lacking belief and disbelieving are not necessarily the same. It is possible to create examples in which this difference is apparent, and that is what I was attempting to do.

Do you disagree that, in the example I offered, the statements are no longer equivalent? Because, to me, it is clearly reasonable to lack belief the toothbrush is under the bed (until evidence is provided that it is) but it is clearly unreasonable to disbelieve that the toothbrush is under the bed (until evidence is provided that it isn't).
 
It would seem strange to deny the existence of God and then claim to be agnostic rather than atheist.

When you say "I deny the existence of God", you're thinking of something in particular...or in general...that other people would understand in particular...or general. Agnostic, to me, implies that the whole notion is outside of my paygrade. I would still, however, express disbelief or rejection in particular God theories.

In the same way, you make a distinction between those who "deny" and those who "disbelieve" in the existence of God.

My dictionary makes that distinction, or, offers both possibilities. Are they equivalent? I think denial and disbelief are related, but different things. I can deny something yet believe it. I can disbelieve something yet accept it.

This is sensible in other examples...I've typed through several but deleted them because they seem pretty banal.

As for the word "agnostic", I would reserve the word for those who see arguments on both sides and feel unable to resolve the conundrum.

You gave an example of honest agnosticism and it's a good one.

I offer that someone can be skeptical enough where he/she thinks the whole conversation is too specific, in regards to a topic that couldn't possibly be decided in tangible specifics. Such a person can appreciate and consider all arguments, may even have opinions about all of them, yet still remain agnostic out of honest skepticism and the certainty that the topic is of a species where certainty is not possible.

Then there's the other thing I've offered...a person preferring not to define themselves as believing in, or disbelieving, something that is either imaginary or impossible to find. Yes, in this case atheism does take a stand, and the aganostic may find such a stand either unimpressive or limiting.

-Elliot
 
But here I'm merely combatting with theories of God in circulation. What about ones that haven't been thought up yet? What about ideas of God absent of what we would equate to personality?
I think of this as the "left leg defense". Who am I to say what "God" means? Maybe ... maybe "God" means "my left leg". Then ... then there is a God. And it's attached to my crotch! What a fool I've been with my dogmatic atheism!

But this is merely to shift the meaning of the word "God", not to make a theological discovery.

To take the particular hypothesis you put forward, I don't see how a "God" without a personality could be distinguished from a law or force of nature.
 
My dictionary makes that distinction, or, offers both possibilities. Are they equivalent? I think denial and disbelief are related, but different things. I can deny something yet believe it.
Can you truthfully deny something yet believe it?

I can disbelieve something yet accept it.
What?

You gave an example of honest agnosticism and it's a good one.
The source is Darwin, BTW. Odd to think of him putting forward the Argument From Design ...
 
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Yes. I agree that in the example you have created all the statements you list are roughly equivalent. What I am saying is that this does not hold true for all examples.

My point is that lacking belief and disbelieving are not necessarily the same. It is possible to create examples in which this difference is apparent, and that is what I was attempting to do.

Do you disagree that, in the example I offered, the statements are no longer equivalent? Because, to me, it is clearly reasonable to lack belief the toothbrush is under the bed (until evidence is provided that it is) but it is clearly unreasonable to disbelieve that the toothbrush is under the bed (until evidence is provided that it isn't).
True: in circustances where you haven't looked to see whether X is the case, lacking belief that X is the case is a weaker state than disbelieving X.

Perhaps for clarity I should have prefixed every term with "I have looked under my bed for evidence of tigers, and ... "
 
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I think of this as the "left leg defense". Who am I to say what "God" means? Maybe ... maybe "God" means "my left leg". Then ... then there is a God. And it's attached to my crotch! What a fool I've been with my dogmatic atheism!

But this is merely to shift the meaning of the word "God", not to make a theological discovery.

It's a bit too ridiculous to consider. The leg is completely contingent and devoid of creativity. God has to, at the very least, be at the top of some hierarchy. I was thinking more like...the "Big Bang" itself being God, as some theistic scientists suggest.

To take the particular hypothesis you put forward, I don't see how a "God" without a personality could be distinguished from a law or force of nature.

Well, it would be a nonrepeatable or singular law/force of nature.

-Elliot
 
Can you truthfully deny something yet believe it?

Well, there's the kicker, the word truthfully. I merely suggested that denial and disbelief are two different things.

As for disbelief, yet acceptance...I can not believe my daughter when she says she didn't eat the candy bar on the kitchen table, yet I can accept her denial. I can not believe a country when it says it has no WMD, yet accept their denial (unless I'm the current president of the USA). As an investigator of steroids in baseball, I can not believe a player when he says he didn't take steroids, yet accept their denial. Again, these are all rather banal.

-Elliot
 
I did say :

In the same way, you make a distinction between those who "deny" and those who "disbelieve" in the existence of God. Well, if I disbelieve in the tigers under my bed, then, if I am truthful, I will also deny that there are tigers under my bed, and vice versa.
As for "accept", I took you to mean "accept as being true".
 
... Perhaps for clarity I should have prefixed every term with "I have looked under my bed for evidence of tigers, and ... "
I think you have misunderstood what I am saying. (It's quite possible I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, as well.)

There are two points I am trying to make. They are:
(1.) Lack of belief and disbelief are not the same.
(2.) There are times when disbelief is reasonable, but there are also times when lack of belief is reasonable and disbelief is unreasonable.

The first point, whether lack of belief and disbelief are the same, is what I thought you were trying to demonstrate with your tiger example. If so, I believe there is a crucial error in your logic. What you have demonstrated is that it is possible to create an example where lack of belief and disbelief are the same. But the point in dispute is not whether the two can be the same -- it is whether they must be the same. So what matters is not whether an example can be constructed where they are the same but whether an example can be constructed where they are not the same. I believe I have done so in the example I presented. You do not need to defend your example; you need to show the flaw in mine.

The reason why your tiger example works as a case where, for a reasonable person, lack of belief and disbelief are equivalent, is (a) because the chances of a tiger being under the bed are extremely small, and (b) if there were one under the bed it would be fairly easy to detect. Therefore it is possible to look under and be reasonably clear that there is no tiger there. In this case, lack of evidence gives clear cause not only for lack of belief (the default position for a reasonable person when sufficient evidence for belief is lacking) but for disbelief as well.

But in everyday life, this is frequently not the case. With small everyday objects, such as a toothbrush -- or a ring, or keys, or a slip of paper -- it is quite possible they have migrated under the bed, and quite possible that merely looking under the bed will not detect them. They might, for example, be underneath or behind another object. While simply looking under the bed is adequate to dispose of the tiger-under-the bed possibility, an actual search is required to dispose of the toothbrush-under-the-bed possibility -- and that may require crawling under the bed, or moving the bed. Given that this will be inconvenient, and given that there may be other places which are more likely to hold the missing object and which are easier to search, searching under the bed may not be a top priority. And until that careful search is carried out, it is reasonable to lack belief that the missing object is under the bed, but it is unreasonable to disbelieve that the missing object is under the bed.

This kind of situation comes up fairly frequently in life. Very often, and for a wide variety of reasons, it simply is not possible to carry out good tests. And even in the cases where it is possible to carry out tests, there is a period of time before those tests are carried out. It is during that period when lack of belief and disbelief are most likely to be distinctly different -- and when it is most important for skeptics, if we are ever to gain wider acceptance by the public at large, to appreciate and respect that difference.

The person who disbelieves simply because there is not evidence to believe is not practicing skepticism. It is as non-skeptical to disbelieve without adequate grounds as it is to believe without adequate grounds. Unfortunately, that is the view that much of the public holds -- that skeptics are people who are antagonistic to unproven things.

For example: in the 1950s the Soviets launched satellites into space. In 1961 they claimed to have put a man into space. This was an extraordinary claim, requiring extraordinary evidence. And, over time, this evidence was forthcoming. But in the initial days, it would have been quite reasonable for a person to take a wait-and-see attitude -- to withhold belief (i.e. to lack belief) until the evidence was in. It would not, however, have been reasonable to disbelieve -- to claim that the Soviet claim was a hoax. Disbelief is itself a claim (that the claim being made is false) and requires supporting evidence.

The question of intelligent life on other planets is another example. As yet, we have no evidence that there is intelligent life on planets other than earth, and it is unlikely we will be able to carry out tests on planets outside our solar system any time soon. A default position of lack of belief is reasonable; a position of blind disbelief, on the other hand, is as unreasonable here as a position of blind belief.

Global climate change is third example. Some people feel we do not yet have enough data to establish whether climate change is occurring, whether human activity is a significant contributing factor, whether the change (if it is real) poses any significant threat to human life and well-being, and (if so) whether there are feasible measures which could be taken to reverse or lessen those harmful effects. If someone feels the data is inconclusive, a default position of lack of belief (I am not yet convinced that global climate change is real / is human caused / is a significant problem) is reasonable. A position of (disbelief (Global warming is a fraud, and those who believe in it are liars or idiots) is not; it is a separate claim, requiring separate evidence.

The difference between lack of belief and disbelief is real, and there are numerous matters where this difference is significant. That is the point I am making. What point are you making, and how are we in disagreement?
 
I see that earlier in the thread there were attempts to address this question (whether lack of belief and disbelief are distinct) in terms of formal logic. I'm more comfortable trying to illustrate my point with examples, but for those who prefer formal logic here is the point made that way.

(1) A is the set of people who hold the belief that something-X exists. People in this set believe.

(2) B is the set of people hold the belief that something-X does not exist. People in this set disbelieve.

(3) Not-A is the set of people who do not hold the belief that something-X exists. People in this set lack belief.

The set Not-A includes people who are undecided about the existence of X, or who have no opinion on the existence of X. If you asked them, do you believe in X? they would answer No -- which puts them in Not-A rather than in A. But these people do not disbelieve in the existence of X; if you asked them Do you believe that X does not exist? they would answer also No. Therefore it is possible to be a member of Not-A without being a member of B.

B is a subset of Not-A. Anyone who belongs to B belongs to Not-A, but not everyone who belongs to Not-A belongs to B.

Therefore, lack of belief and disbelief are not the same thing, and it is possible for a person to lack belief without disbelieving.
 
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I think you have misunderstood what I am saying. (It's quite possible I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, as well.)

There are two points I am trying to make. They are:
(1.) Lack of belief and disbelief are not the same.
(2.) There are times when disbelief is reasonable, but there are also times when lack of belief is reasonable and disbelief is unreasonable.

The difference between lack of belief and disbelief is real, and there are numerous matters where this difference is significant. That is the point I am making. What point are you making, and how are we in disagreement?
I understand you fine. My schema only applies when one has looked for the evidence, as I have explained. If I have looked under the bed for tigers, then lack of belief, and disbelief, in the tigers under my bed stand on the same empirical basis.

When one has no information, that is a different case. If I see a guy in the street with whom I have no acquaintance, then it would be true to say that I "lack belief" that his name is Jack, but stretching it to say that I actively "disbelieve" it.
 
It's a bit too ridiculous to consider. The leg is completely contingent and devoid of creativity. God has to, at the very least, be at the top of some hierarchy. I was thinking more like...the "Big Bang" itself being God, as some theistic scientists suggest.
Who?

In any case, this would seem to be a blatant example of left-leggism. At least my left leg exists in the present. If the Big Bang was God, then there is no God now ... or am I meant to worship the continuing expansion of space? The background microwave radiation? The laws of General Relativity, and their prophet Einstein?

It's not enough to point out that the Big Bang nearly has one of the attributes that people ascribe to God. So does my left leg --- it's alive.

"I know that my left leg liveth ... at the name of my left leg every knee shall bow ... "

Silly, isn't it?
 
I understand you fine. My schema only applies when one has looked for the evidence ...
Not quite. I think that greater precision of language is called for here. It is not simply that evidence has been looked for that is required to make your schema applicable; it is also that strongly determinative evidence has been found.

In many cases, this simply is not possible. You are free to look as hard as you wish for evidence of intelligent life on other planets, for example, but we are not at present able to see under that bed clearly enough to determine if the tiger (intelligent alien life) is there.

When one has no information, that is a different case.
Likewise, you are much too imprecise when you say when one has no information. That implies an all or nothing situation -- either one has found enough information to settle the matter, or one has no information. But it is not simply in the relatively few cases where we have no information that your schema doesn't apply. It is also in the much larger number of cases where we have information but not enough information.

And even in cases where your schema will apply -- the cases where we are able to run a test, such as looking under a bed, and where the test is sufficient to reach a clear determination of whether something is under the bed or not -- there is going to be a period of time between when the question arises and when we are able to conclude the test, during which we have inadequate information for a determination. So in all cases, even those where your schema applies, there will be a period of time when lack of belief is distinct from disbelief.

Phrasing it the way you do it makes it sound as if it is only in cases with no information -- a fairly rare circumstance -- that lack of belief will be distinct from disbelief. That's why it is important to be clear that cases with no information are simply a small subset in the much larger category of cases with insufficient information.

Careless wording such as in your post could give people the misimpression that lack of belief and disbelief being distinct is the exception. In reality it is not the exception but the rule.
 
I won't completely back off from what I asserted earlier. *THE EXISTENCE OF GOD*. That's the issue. Whether you deny it, or disbelieve it. It's still a tricky issue. It's still different from the concept of being sick. Being sick is a real thing that we experience. Personally, if I did deny, or did disbelieve, in the existence of God, I would be averse to defining myself *contingent* to the existence of God. I'd probably go with agnostic. But that's just me.

-Elliot


I always find this point a little baffling.

How can there be an +existence+ debate about a theoretical construct? I don't have a feeling one way or the other about the existence of God - no-one has ever demonstrated to me that the concept "god" has any validity.

Until that point gets dealt with, arguing about "existence" is pointless - IMHO.
 
I always find it hysterical that theists best argument against atheism is .................. "hitler was one"

Bless em:p
 

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