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Medical arguments against cannibalism

whitefork

None of the above
Joined
Aug 6, 2001
Messages
2,326
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58544

How much risk does the eating of your own species entail? Kuru, Creutzfelt-Jakob Disease, cannibalism....Sounds risky in addition having a strong cultural bias against it.

Is there a greater risk in getting nasty illness as you get closer to your own genetic makeup? And if so, would there be medical reasons for not eating whales and porpoises?
 
Whales aren't close in the evolutionary tree to us. Sheep, cows and deer aren't either and yet you can catch these prion diseases from them. Kuru could likely be avoided to a great extent if cannibals ate only the meat (no nervous system tissue).
 
Or perhaps if cannibals restricted their diet to vegetarians...
Thanks.
 
Whales aren't close in the evolutionary tree to us. Sheep, cows and deer aren't either and yet you can catch these prion diseases from them. Kuru could likely be avoided to a great extent if cannibals ate only the meat (no nervous system tissue).
Except that it's been demonstrated, at least with BSE, that prions can be found in muscle tissue and blood; though in nowhere near the concentration that they are found in nerve tissue.
 
Whales aren't close in the evolutionary tree to us. Sheep, cows and deer aren't either and yet you can catch these prion diseases from them. Kuru could likely be avoided to a great extent if cannibals ate only the meat (no nervous system tissue).
But they'd still be leaving themselves open to parasites that did exploit that pathway to a new host.

I'm firmly in the camp that regards the parasite-host arms-race as a crucial evolutionary accelarant. Predator-prey interactions in the Serengeti make better video, but the down and dirty real struggle is parasite-host.

Parasites need pathways to new hosts. People generally don't eat people, but probably could in the short-term (avoiding the brain, obviously) but over the long-term it's a pathway that would be exploited. Consider how many STD's there are. And extrapolate.

Most dudes don't eat their homies. That's just asking for trouble.
 
Well parasites have already evolved to infect humans from the common animals they eat. Unlike prions the rest of infectious parasitic, bacterial and viral diseases can all be avoided by cooking.
 
I second Capel-dodger's position.

Pathogen-host relationships (which have radically changed since changes in human communities developed millenia ago) have a far more dramatic impact on population numbers than any predator-prey relationship. Contamination with any fluids infected with potential pathogens dramatically increases the risk of oneself becoming infected; the closer the relationship between the source of the fluid and the self, the greater the chance it will contain a virulent pathogen.

Athon
 
Whales aren't close in the evolutionary tree to us. Sheep, cows and deer aren't either and yet you can catch these prion diseases from them. Kuru could likely be avoided to a great extent if cannibals ate only the meat (no nervous system tissue).

Is there any obvious reason why a disease caused by an incorrectly shaped protein would be more likely to be caught from a closely related animal? Is it not in fact more likely from a distantly related animal? (Or indeed plant?)
 
I second Capel-dodger's position.

Pathogen-host relationships (which have radically changed since changes in human communities developed millenia ago) have a far more dramatic impact on population numbers than any predator-prey relationship. Contamination with any fluids infected with potential pathogens dramatically increases the risk of oneself becoming infected; the closer the relationship between the source of the fluid and the self, the greater the chance it will contain a virulent pathogen.

Athon
Scientific knowledge has rendered parasitic and contagious infectious diseases harmless when handled properly. There are other reason to not eat ones own kind.
 
Scientific knowledge has rendered parasitic and contagious infectious diseases harmless when handled properly. There are other reason to not eat ones own kind.

Are you talking about moralistic reasons? Well, I'm not out to make a meal of my best mate any time soon, but I think we were discussing objective reasons here (unless I'm mistaken).

'When handled properly', I'm assuming, does not include ingestion of contaminated biological material. HIV most probably made the species jump through fluid transfer caused by ingesting infected simian flesh and that was most likely within the modern age. I would not be so bold as to think this could not occur again with other pathogens. Taking into account that the closer the genetic relationship between consumed and consumr, the greater the chance of successfully exchanging a virulent pathogen, I still think spread of pathogens is the number one objective reason for not regularly consuming one's breathren.

Athon
 
Is there any obvious reason why a disease caused by an incorrectly shaped protein would be more likely to be caught from a closely related animal? Is it not in fact more likely from a distantly related animal? (Or indeed plant?)

Not necessarily. For a protein that converts others of its own sequence into matching its own morphology to sustain a healthy chance at being selected, it would need a sizeable population of host proteins close at hand, which means within its own cellular environment. If you think about a plant protein evolving to be able to alter the shape of a human protein, it would have a harder time being selected for than if it only changed its own. It would have a higher chance of reproducing successfully if it could evolve to change proteins within its immediate environment first.

Athon
 
Are you talking about moralistic reasons? Well, I'm not out to make a meal of my best mate any time soon, but I think we were discussing objective reasons here (unless I'm mistaken).

'When handled properly', I'm assuming, does not include ingestion of contaminated biological material. HIV most probably made the species jump through fluid transfer caused by ingesting infected simian flesh and that was most likely within the modern age. I would not be so bold as to think this could not occur again with other pathogens. Taking into account that the closer the genetic relationship between consumed and consumr, the greater the chance of successfully exchanging a virulent pathogen, I still think spread of pathogens is the number one objective reason for not regularly consuming one's breathren.

Athon
Hiv is easily killed in tissues outside of a living creature when one knows how (cook it). Perhaps in the past pathogens are why many cultures did not eat many things. Not now.
 
Hiv is easily killed in tissues outside of a living creature when one knows how (cook it). Perhaps in the past pathogens are why many cultures did not eat many things. Not now.

I'm still not fully grasping what you're trying to say. HIV made the jump from simian to man in the modern age, when cultures cooked food prior to eating it. While it isn't known for certain, it seems most likely that simply coming into contact with infected blood during food preparation was enough to allow for contamination. Prion diseases spread by ritualistic funeral practices also occured when food preparation included cooking. Just because such practices are present does not fully remove the threat, even if it does reduce it.

I agree that cooking food does remove the threat of most pathogens, as does a number of other treatments. However, even just food preparation can put you into contact with potential diseases.

Athon
 
Is there any obvious reason why a disease caused by an incorrectly shaped protein would be more likely to be caught from a closely related animal? Is it not in fact more likely from a distantly related animal? (Or indeed plant?)
Do plants have even have diseases that would have a way of making the jump to humans? Blight, dutch elm disease, something along those lines?
 
Do plants have even have diseases that would have a way of making the jump to humans? Blight, dutch elm disease, something along those lines?
No idea, I'm afraid. I'm out on a limb in speculative mode here. Technically, people shouldn't catch sheep diseases either. If CJD is a scrapie variant, we are looking at human agricultural methods creating a disease in sheep, transferring it to cattle, then on to humans, all without benefit of direct tampering with the genome of any of the three animals, in a timespan of a few centuries.
Now that we actually are deliberately transferring DNA between different plant species and possibly between animals / fungi and plants, we may have some kewl surprises in store.

In any case, it's not the disease that is necessarily transferred. My point is that alien protein might cause a new disease if it gets into a very distantly related species. If the supply of "prionisable" protein is limited , as is more likely in an unrelated creature, the effects might be minor.

Athon- while prions seem to be halfway between memes and "real" life forms- ie their "reproductive" method is not directly DNA moderated- the fact remains that the prion must move from one host to another like any other parasite.
I agree it may be more likely to thrive where there is a big supply of sufficiently similar protein "feedstock",but it is also more likely to destroy that feedstock- ie its host.
What I'm getting at is that a " normal" protein in a wholly unrelated beastie might have the potential to "turn prion" if transferred. Until we know the details of how the specific shape of each protein is generated, I don't see how we can be sure that related protein is more apt to cause prion type diseases than alien protein, though the effects of a related prion will be very severe because of the availability of that large, related feedstock (a brain, a heart, whatever) waiting to be prionised.

I have a suspicion (and it's a wildass, wholly unsubstantiated one), that we will eventually find that many minor diseases involve prion transfer from alien sources, as well as the few we are aware of now- Kuru, scrapie, CJD- (are there more?), which involve "related" mammal proteins.
These all have similar, massive effects on the nervous system, but even so, it took a long time to isolate the causative agents.
What if there are millions of potential prions in the environment, most of which have far less overt symptoms?
 
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I'm still not fully grasping what you're trying to say. HIV made the jump from simian to man in the modern age, when cultures cooked food prior to eating it. While it isn't known for certain, it seems most likely that simply coming into contact with infected blood during food preparation was enough to allow for contamination. Prion diseases spread by ritualistic funeral practices also occured when food preparation included cooking. Just because such practices are present does not fully remove the threat, even if it does reduce it.

I agree that cooking food does remove the threat of most pathogens, as does a number of other treatments. However, even just food preparation can put you into contact with potential diseases.

Athon
Transmission during food preparation can be avoided by wearing appropriate protective gear. Prion diseases of humans could be greatly avoided by not eating sick humans and almost entirely by not eating nervous tissue. I don't think the original poster was thinking of the historical aspects but current state of cannibalism. The point is that we have the knowledge and technology to safely eat human tissue if we so wanted. We don't do it for other reasons (not because of risk of transmission of disease). If we wanted to we could test humans prior to eating them for various things also. We don't want to eat humans.
 
I can't find a link, or remember the specifics, but wasn't there a tribe in Africa or South America somewhere that had a problem with degenerative nerve diseases due to cannibalism?

I apologise if someone already posted this, but I seem to remember seeing that on the National Geographic channel a while back, but I can't find anything on it now.
 
I can't find a link, or remember the specifics, but wasn't there a tribe in Africa or South America somewhere that had a problem with degenerative nerve diseases due to cannibalism?

I apologise if someone already posted this, but I seem to remember seeing that on the National Geographic channel a while back, but I can't find anything on it now.
Yes that is Kuru (the name of the diseast) and it was in Papua New Guinea.
 

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