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What does it mean to be "liberal"

Meadmaker said:
You provided your own example. If you think there's a legal issue involved in whether or not the Smallville Junior High School Boy's Choir can sing "Silent Night", I'm laughing at you.

Oh no! It's a boy's choir!:eek:
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What "plenty of JREF folks" are involved in that?
 
Meadmaker said:
I was mostly joking, but I do think it's a little funny when people blow a gasket when someone tries to put a Christmas carol into the "Winter Concert",
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Watch how many gaskets Christians would blow if kids in schools were encouraged to sing "I love Mohammed" or "Jesus is a Fraud". Christians are hypocrites and cowards. They expect people to sit by and let them force their religion onto society while they cry when other try to do same.

or that case where the St, Paul Human Rights Director had someone remove the Easter Bunny from a city office.
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The Easter bunny has nothing to do with Christianity.
 
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Tony said:
Watch how many gaskets Christians would blow if kids in schools were encouraged to sing "I love Mohammed" or "Jesus is a Fraud". Christians are hypocrites and cowards. They expect people to sit by and let them force their religion onto society while they cry when other try to do same.



The Easter bunny has nothing to do with Christianity.
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Tell that to the St. Paul Human Rights Director.

Upchurch said:
What "plenty of JREF folks" are involved in that?
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Well, Tony, at least. But I think we'll find a few more.
 
drkitten said:
Translation : if I can't force you to do what I want (such as listen to me) you're forcing me underground. Your refusal to obey me is a violation of my rights.
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That's about right. I've come to realize that when religious people (mostly christians and muslims) speak of "freedom". They really mean the "freedom" to force their beliefs on other people.
 
Meadmaker said:
that case where the St, Paul Human Rights Director had someone remove the Easter Bunny from a city office.
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More wonderful examples of "factual accuracy" from the right-wing.

From the St. Paul Pioneer press:
The decorations — including the stuffed rabbit, Easter eggs and a handcrafted sign saying "Happy Easter," but nothing depicting the biblical account of Christ's death and resurrection — were put up this week in the office of the City Council by a council secretary.

"I sent an e-mail that Easter is viewed as a Christian holiday and advised that it be taken down," said Tyrone Terrill, the city's human rights director.

"I absolutely wonder how colored eggs and bunnies and chickens are Christian," Thune said. "I'm a little puzzled how people can be offended."
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What was taken down was the entire Easter decorations, not just specifically the bunny. Decorations that were specifically only put up to in celebration of Easter.

City Hall does display holiday decorations near Christmas — including "Happy Holidays" banners — but they are not specific to a particular holiday.
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.... so decorations are fine, as long as they are not specific to a particular holiday.

I can live with that. What other holidays, besides the celebration of Christ's ressurection, are celebrated in March and April with the display of colored eggs, bunnies, and chickens?

Can't think of any? Neither can I. Could it possibly that the displays are specific to a particular holiday? Coud it possibly be that the holiday to which they are specific is tied to a specific religion?
 
drkitten said:
Can't think of any? Neither can I. Could it possibly that the displays are specific to a particular holiday? Coud it possibly be that the holiday to which they are specific is tied to a specific religion?
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Pegan celebration of the spring equinox? Still it's pretty specific, you're either talking about Christianity or Peganism.
 
hammegk said:
True. But two people sticking their fingers in their ears shouting 'nah nah I can't hear you' are no more meaningful than one.

Pick any of the positions I named and explain why it is not the "liberal" position on that issue.

For those who think pc'lib means anything other than standard issue US liberal, I disagree.

And why Meadmaker proposes

Position , True Liberal
"alternate lifestyles" , mostly .... it isn't conservatives who back them.

For the following, his "True Liberal positions" are US Conservative and have nothing to do with US Liberal philosophy:

Position , True Liberal
"alternate lifestyles" , mostly ... Er, 110% is mostly?
abortion , I think so ... Also 110%
higher taxes , no (but must pay the bills) ... no liberal I know of ...
affirmative action , no .... What?
blame society first, rarely .... Huh? Free Mumia!
appeasement , no .... LOL.
regulations , rarely .... Again.
responsibiltiy, yes

How in Ed's name did you conclude those are "liberal" positions???? :confused:
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How in Ed's name can you conclude this is a coherant post?
 
Meadmaker said:
Read, Hammy. I know my posts are long winded, so I forgive, but I'll summarize: A true liberal is open minded, and values freedom. That doesn't always characterize the democratic party or the American left.

Example: A true liberal would not impose regulations without a compelling reason, but a typical US "liberal" would.

{snip}

My point is that the Democratic party isn't truly liberal. In some ways, the Republicans can be more liberal than the democrats.
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Wait a sec, the Republican party has tried to impose regulations without compelling reason. (see Flag Burning Amendment, Gay Marriage Amendment, the whole Terri Schiavo debacle)
 
Meadmaker said:
You provided your own example. If you think there's a legal issue involved in whether or not the Smallville Junior High School Boy's Choir can sing "Silent Night", I'm laughing at you.
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Isn't Silent Night a religious song?
 
Upchurch said:
Wait a sec, the Republican party has tried to impose regulations without compelling reason. (see Flag Burning Amendment, Gay Marriage Amendment, the whole Terri Schiavo debacle)
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And in some ways, the Democrats are more liberal than the Republicans. I would agree that all those are examples of illiberal behavior by the Republicans, although there's a bit of room for debate about the second.
 
No, mead, there is no room of debate about gay marriage. There has yet to be one valid and compelling reason to ban gay marriage.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Isn't Silent Night a religious song?
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Last time I checked, yes.

And if you think that’s a good reason to ban it, I’m laughing at you.


But regardless of my amusement, let’s ask whether it’s liberal or not.

Is it open minded to have a “banned songs” list? Does it advance freedom when you censor the expression of certain ideas? It just doesn’t strike me as very liberal.

For what it’s worth, if you tell me that a school banned a Jewish song, and left “Silent Night” on the program, I think you would have a point. There aren’t exactly a lot of atheist “hymns”, but I’m sure that there are songs that Christians find offensive due to political or philosophical issues. If you ban them, but leave in “Silent Night”, then I think you would have a point.

If a choir director, school board, or principal decided it wasn’t right for their school, that would be a different issue.

And if you tell a kid he can’t be in the choir unless he sings “Silent Night”, you might have a point.

But when you say, “You aren’t allowed to sing that song!” I’m not going to give you the Liberal of the Year Award.
 
Meadmaker said:
And if you think that’s a good reason to ban it, I’m laughing at you.
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Except it's not banned, your willful misunderstandings to the contrary notwithstanding.


But when you say, “You aren’t allowed to sing that song!”
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No one is saying that.

They are saying "the official choir of a state-sponsored institution is not allowed to sing that song in an official capacity."

You can sing whatever you like, on your own time. In private, in public, whatever. You can get together with your friends and go carolling, even if your friends all happen to be members of the official choir.
 
drkitten said:
They are saying "the official choir of a state-sponsored institution is not allowed to sing that song in an official capacity."

You can sing whatever you like, on your own time. In private, in public, whatever. You can get together with your friends and go carolling, even if your friends all happen to be members of the official choir.
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That's probably more to the heart of the issue.
 
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