Nothing Fails Like Prayer (not)

Beleth said:
There are failures, and there are grand failures. Having nothing happen is not a grand failure; it is a simple failure. But even so (and please pardon the double negative), nothing didn't happen in this case.
If you invent a death ray and pull the trigger and the person you aimed it at falls asleep, is that a failure?
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Of course it is a failure. Now a sleep ray could be very usefull too.

Please define a grand failure. How can it be "grander" than zero results?
If you are trying to build a pyramid and end up with absolutely nothing. Is that a grand failure?
 
Beleth said:
There are failures, and there are grand failures. Having nothing happen is not a grand failure; it is a simple failure. But even so (and please pardon the double negative), nothing didn't happen in this case.
If you invent a death ray and pull the trigger and the person you aimed it at falls asleep, is that a failure?
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It didn't do what it was supposed to do, so the death ray is a failure. However you have now apparently invented a sleeping ray which is a success.

Anyway that doesn't matter: Take a look at the graph again! The graph starts levelling off several days BEFORE they make the prayer. Why did they start praying when the gas prices were steady? Doesn't it make more sense to pray when the gas prices are rising?

Apparently not. They knew that the price was going to stay roughly the same so they made their prayer at that specific time. They could have prayed just after 3/13 on the graph for a similiar effect.
 
psy kick said:
See where I said it doesn't seem to matter whether one prays or not.

Is that a 2 dragon garage?
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Actually, you didn't say that it doesn't seem to matter, you said that sometimes prayer is definitely answered. My point is that it's not definite at all, you can't tell whether it's been answered or not. I would say that chance and coincidence would easily explain why you THINK that your prayer had an effect. However, the events you claim had devine intervention, would have occured (or not) regardless of whether or not you talk to yourself....

Since there's no way to determine from observation any qualities of my dragon (it requires faith to believe in him) there is an infinite number of dragons occupying no space in my garage.
 
Still wondering if psy kick is going to answer about why this God has priority problems.
 
Medb said:
But .... if you invent a death ray and you aim it at something and pull the trigger and nothing happens, isn't that a grand failure? It doesn't have to blow up in your face to be considered so.
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Dunno if it's the same thing. In your example you built something. That would be a model. Models don't have the same rules a prospective study would have.
 
LostAngeles said:
Still wondering if psy kick is going to answer about why this God has priority problems.
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Yeah, and I wonder if any of the people claiming, "God has his reasons" and "The reasons will be revealed" have thought about whether or not after hearing those supposed reasons they will say, "Gee, OK, I see now how wonderful you are, God", or "Gosh, so burning those children alive in that house the other day makes so much sense now."?
 
skeptigirl said:
Yeah, and I wonder if any of the people claiming, "God has his reasons" and "The reasons will be revealed" have thought about whether or not after hearing those supposed reasons they will say, "Gee, OK, I see now how wonderful you are, God"?
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I don't think he needed a good reason to do this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605/od_nm/ukraine_lion_dc

I guess he didn't have time to pray for help?

Probably too many people praying that it would end just like it did....

Was that a conincidence?
 
psy kick said:
I wasn't trying to convince that. I believe I said something to the order of "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Maybe just like chance."
Those were not my exact words, but i never said it worked often. it doesn't.
And I'm a she.
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And the backpedaling continues--let's review the entire record, shall we?

psy kick said:
I know from personal experience, sometimes prayer is definitely answered. But sometimes it isn't. Its a bit capricious. So you can't count on it to happen (if one is christian). Sometimes He'll answer, sometimes, its a no.
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CP489 said:
Hey! The same thing happens when I do nothing. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't...weird.
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psy kick said:
Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.
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So here you're contradicting the idea that it's no better than chance.

Just in case you're worried, I'm not saying these things to be mean to you because you believe. I'm saying them because you've been inconsistent in your arguments. Have a look around and you'll see anyone else get the same treatment when that happens.
 
skeptigirl said:
Yeah, and I wonder if any of the people claiming, "God has his reasons" and "The reasons will be revealed" have thought about whether or not after hearing those supposed reasons they will say, "Gee, OK, I see now how wonderful you are, God", or "Gosh, so burning those children alive in that house the other day makes so much sense now."?
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Exactly. I had either of two options-either God isn't all powerful (if he was, he would stop illness and abuse) or he was, but just was very selective about who he helped (meaning he wasn't loving to some people).
There is no "reasons we can't know yet". I hate when people tell me that.
I am trying to decide between the two options. I hope he is not all powerful.
 
case sensitive said:
Of course it is a failure. Now a sleep ray could be very usefull too.
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What makes you think it was a sleep ray? It could have been coincidence.

Please define a grand failure. How can it be "grander" than zero results?
If you are trying to build a pyramid and end up with absolutely nothing. Is that a grand failure?
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Grand, def. 4: "large and striking in size, scope, extent, or conception"
Failure, def. 1a: "omission of occurrence or performance"

So a "grand failure" is a "large and striking omission of occurrence or performance".

Zero results is neither large nor striking. Thus, it is not grand. Medb gave a good example of something blowing up in your face. If you are trying to build a pyramid and you end up with nothing, that is a failure. If you end up with a smoking radioactive hole in the ground, that is a grand failure.

What is it when, like in this case, you end up with something that looks like a half-built pyramid?
 
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Cheesejoff said:
Take a look at the graph again! The graph starts levelling off several days BEFORE they make the prayer. Why did they start praying when the gas prices were steady? Doesn't it make more sense to pray when the gas prices are rising?
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Good point. There is indeed one pixel's worth of leveling off before the marker line. Let me know the results of your research into those questions!

They knew that the price was going to stay roughly the same so they made their prayer at that specific time.
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Please show evidence that they knew this. Perhaps it's true that they did not know that prices had stabilized, so they prayed anyway.

They could have prayed just after 3/13 on the graph for a similiar effect.
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Hindsight's always 20/20...
 
Beleth said:
What makes you think it was a sleep ray? It could have been coincidence.

Grand, def. 4: "large and striking in size, scope, extent, or conception"
Failure, def. 1a: "omission of occurrence or performance"

So a "grand failure" is a "large and striking omission of occurrence or performance".

Zero results is neither large nor striking. Thus, it is not grand. Medb gave a good example of something blowing up in your face. If you are trying to build a pyramid and you end up with nothing, that is a failure. If you end up with a smoking radioactive hole in the ground, that is a grand failure.

What is it when, like in this case, you end up with something that looks like a half-built pyramid?
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Are you referring to the prayer results when you talk about half-built pyramid. Cause I didn't see any half result there.

So if you have 50 000 men working around the clock for 400 years trying to build a pyramid and ending up with nothing. That isn't a grand failure? I don't think the Egyptians would have agreed with you.
 
psy kick said:
Exactly. I had either of two options-either God isn't all powerful (if he was, he would stop illness and abuse) or he was, but just was very selective about who he helped (meaning he wasn't loving to some people).
There is no "reasons we can't know yet". I hate when people tell me that.
I am trying to decide between the two options. I hope he is not all powerful.
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Well, I'm happy to know you're thinking about it at least.
 
case sensitive said:
Are you referring to the prayer results when you talk about half-built pyramid. Cause I didn't see any half result there.
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You don't? I do. The slope of the graph changes dramatically at around that point. Perhaps a pixel before that point, as I have mentioned. It's be really nice to have a more detailed graph, but given what we have, it's clearly unreasonable to conclude that nothing happened at or around the point marked by the red line.


So if you have 50 000 men working around the clock for 400 years trying to build a pyramid and ending up with nothing. That isn't a grand failure?
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I believe I've answered this already.
 
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psy kick said:
Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.
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Do you know what I ask God for? Right now, somewhere in this country, a child is being raped. It happens every few minutes. It is happening now. What I ask God for, every single day, every single night, every hour of every week, is to call me on the phone and give me an address.

He doesn't have do to anything more than that. He doesn't have to interfere with anybody's free will. I'll do that. He doesn't have to reveal himself - if he wants to keep it anoynomous, that's fine. I'll keep his name out of the papers. He doesn't have to send angels or move bridges or anything. Just give me an address. I'll take myself there and accept full responsiblity for the consequences. Heck, he can call me collect if he can't afford the long-distance fees. I'll pay for the call. All I want from God is an address.

That's all. Just pick up the phone, punch in my number, and whisper an address.

But my phone never rings.

I guess God was too busy sending you money to call me.
 
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CP489 said:
Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?
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Yeah, it's something I've noticed. if you base your decisions on what to believe entirely on the quality of grammar used by Internet supporters, you end up with the skeptical position being overwhelmingly convincing.
 
Yahzi said:
Do you know what I ask God for? Right now, somewhere in this country, a child is being raped. It happens every few minutes. It is happening now. What I ask God for, every single day, every single night, every hour of every week, is to call me on the phone and give me an address.



But my phone never rings.

I guess God was too busy sending you money to call me.
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I wish he would call you instead, too. I can't make him.
 
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