Maybe you did not notice, but I did mention native populations as being part inquisitions. The European inquisitions were happening at the same time as the crusades into the newly discovered lands were going on; the same people responsible for the European persecutions were involved in the native peoples persecution. I think Christians have an easier time seperating the persecutions into individual components - that way you can play with the numbers and sleep better.
Hitler and Stalin
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Maybe you did not notice, but I did mention native populations as being part inquisitions. The European inquisitions were happening at the same time as the crusades into the newly discovered lands were going on; the same people responsible for the European persecutions were involved in the native peoples persecution. I think Christians have an easier time seperating the persecutions into individual components - that way you can play with the numbers and sleep better.
What has happened in the past, and I'll admit to all the facts, is independent of how I sleep.
On what is your understanding of the nature and scope of the Inquisitions based? What specific facts are you alleging, for that matter, about the Inquisitions and the treatment of New World natives?
All serious historians separate, for example, the various Inquisitions into different historical phenomena. Not to play with numbers, but to be able to understand their differences and distinctive features.
headscratcher4
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It is arguable what Stalin's motives were...kill as many as possible? Seems unlikely. Subdue all possible oposition to his rule? Re-make society to suite his political/cultural vision? Clearly, he didn't care a heck of a lot about human life...completely indifferent it would seem...but I don't think it was about killing for killing sake any more than the religious wars/murders/deaths were about killing for killing sake. Stalin, I would argue, was killing for his own god...the Marxist/Lenist spiral of history just as Inquisitors tortured and killed for their god.
Indeed, it is arguable that even Hitler didn't kill for killing sake...I am sure he would argue that his policies were to erradicate sub-humans and save Western civilization, impose order, remake man, etc. Now, you can argue about how rational that was, you can show undoubtedly that there were psychopathic members of these regimes for whom killing was for killing sake...but, IMO, these regimes were ideologically based and killing was a means to an end, not an end in and of it self. THat end could be punishment, as were Stalin's starvation policies against peasants in the civil war, or as Nazi retaliatory policies against villages and populations for resistence...but in their crazy way, they thought they were serving a ideological end...a belief that IMO to them was as strong a motivation as any belief that motivates one to religious zealotry...
Indeed, it is arguable that even Hitler didn't kill for killing sake...I am sure he would argue that his policies were to erradicate sub-humans and save Western civilization, impose order, remake man, etc. Now, you can argue about how rational that was, you can show undoubtedly that there were psychopathic members of these regimes for whom killing was for killing sake...but, IMO, these regimes were ideologically based and killing was a means to an end, not an end in and of it self. THat end could be punishment, as were Stalin's starvation policies against peasants in the civil war, or as Nazi retaliatory policies against villages and populations for resistence...but in their crazy way, they thought they were serving a ideological end...a belief that IMO to them was as strong a motivation as any belief that motivates one to religious zealotry...
blutoski
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I stand corrected. Perhaps he just looked short standing in a crowd of SS aryan ubermenn.
This will my last post on this particular thread. I am not a Christian historian, and make no claim as an expert. I have read several books on the history of the Christian Church and the various persecutions conducted by the church since it became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Even in those early days of the Church, persecutions of competing Christian sects and other non-Christians groups was common. Some groups like the Gnostics and Nazarenes were completely wiped out, including the destruction of their sacred texts. This type of religious domination over the European continent and later extented into the new world, continued for as long as the Church existed. Sometimes the persecutions were limited and sometimes they were heavy, but the Church always fought for control, and death is an instument they freely used in the name of God. The year 1808 is generally considered the end of the Inquisition. Because of it's nature, there is conflicting information as to exact numbers, but there is much information out there that proves that the Christian Church has always conducted persecutions since it came to power. Only lately has the Church's power been restrained.
My only goal in this post was to point out that Hitler and Stalin were bad examples of the Human Race, but many religious Christian leaders were no better. Just because you claim to be doing God's work, does not make it so. I haven't researched it, but I bet other religions have a bad track record as well. Being a non-believer does not make us evil.
blutoski
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One of the other things is that, all things being equal, has any atheis ever gone out there and pulled a stunt like these Crusades or Jihads: that is... has any atheist killed people "in the name of atheism" or to "eliminate religion".
I'm unaware of any examples.
(wasn't there a parody news report somewhere, like the Onion, that was titled: "Atheists, agnotsics clash: fifty dead" ?)
You're sure about a lot of things.
Hey everybody. I'm a Foundie. Trantor is sure of it.
At least you recognize it's a nice dream. Would you feel better if we Foundies had not nice dreams? Do our dreams matter to you?
Why should anyone lose sleep over things that happened centuries ago, Foundie or not-Foundie?
-Elliot
Agreed. I'd add that he had no respect for due process or "benefit of the doubt". At least some of the Inquisitors went through the trouble of trials and testimony...and we do know that some of those trials led to exonerations, so you can't poo-poo that, unless your name is Trantor or you are a Foundie.
If Stalin had a speck of suspicion...off you went, I reckon. But no, he didn't just kill random people, there was a purpose behind it.
I do think that anyone in a position of power with people who support them must have some principles behind them that would lead to, or explain, their mass murder. Yes, of course Hitler thought he was serving either humanity or a small part of humanity, he didn't think he was killing for no reason.
-Elliot
What Christian leaders were no better than Hitler or Stalin? And how do we measure that? I guess you're not going to reply to this Trantor, but I'm glad to see that at least in this case you are unsure, or are pretending to be unsure.
-Elliot
Dcdrac
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Just point ot all the death and derstruction THEIR god is meant to have caused as recorded by their myth the Bible
You'd have to replace atheism with communism or Nazism. To eliminate religion...well...I think so. If you agree to that displacement.
It would be...wow...pretty damn hard to kill in the name of atheism. Because atheism is essentially about *disbelief in something*. I agree that that's not a very good motivation to *do* anything, let alone kill.
-Elliot
It won't work. The analogy you make compares their "god" to Hitler and Stalin, and Christians won't accept the comparison. I understand that you think they ought to, but they just won't. Then you can call them illogical and unreasonable and dumb, and they'll say that you are all of that.
But at least you're right, right? That's the important thing.
-Elliot
Elliot, I did not mean any disrespect toward you personally. That is not my way. If I came across that way, you have my appologies. I am sure about those things that I have research myself and found to be true and based on facts. When I was in the process of questioning my own beliefs, I read a lot of books on the Christian Church in order to know the thruth for myself.
I will not do the research for you. You must do that on your own, if that's what you want. It's been some years since I read material on Christian history, but I do remember most of the general historical details. Yesterday, you got me thinking about some of this because you stated that the Iquisition involved only 5,000 deaths.
The timeframe of the Inquisition is not generally agreed on. Some researchers believe it started soon after the Church came to power after Constantine, others say it started in the 1100's and ended in the early 1800's. The figure of 5,000 deaths is the number the Catholic Church acknowleges. I don't buy it. A simple google search will confirm it. I had forgotten the details on some of the worst episodes of the Church persecutions, but I did a quick search and found the episode that claim never happened because it involved the death of 20,000 people. Keep in mind that this is but one incident in a 1700 year campaigne.
Go to any search engine or Wikipedia and type in Pope Innocent(boy I love that name!) The Albigensian Crusade against the Cathers in the city of Beziers. I submit to you sir, that if you arm 1,000 or 10,0000 soldiers with swords and let them loose, they can achieve results similar to those achieved by later day madmen with more advanced killing technology.
Anyway enough on this topic. Take care.
Anacoluthon64
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Not quite. Strong atheism asserts a positive belief that there is no god. It is easy to see how a sufficiently narrow-minded and fanatical perspective could spill over into murdering any opposition, perceived or actual. However, evidence is scant that strong atheists have ever resorted to such activity - whether this is the result of strong atheism's paucity or differences in morality is an open question.
Agnosticism, on the other hand, takes a more neutral I-don't-really-know(-nor-do-I-especially-care) tack, and for this version it is difficult to see how violence could ensue because there isn't much to defend either way from the position other than the right to hold this view.
'Luthon64
A positive belief in a negative?
Should I do the math for you?
Too easy if you ask me. Is it easy to do it, or get to that point? I don't think so. Opposition remains, it exists.
Yeah, but how many atheists have been in positions of great power and authority? Let's name ALL OF THEM. Now, what kind of dudes were these? Did they murder opposition, perceived/actual? In the name of atheism? No, they called it something else, the something else being an ideology minus god.
I agree that atheist/agnosticism...BY THEMSELVES...does not really extend to mass murder. You need more things in play. I'd extend that to Christianity.
I don't know about Islam, but I'll be charitable *to the religion* for now.
-Elliot
Anacoluthon64
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Please do, as clearly I'm insufficiently acquainted with these lofty matters to do it myself. The contention "I believe there is no god" is very different from the one that says "I do not believe there is a god."
Apologies, but your elevated rhetoric is too complex for my trifling mind to follow.
Once again, comprehension largely fails. I haven't said, nor have I meant to imply, that atheists have perpetrated atrocities in the name of atheism. What I was suggesting is that it is conceivable that strong atheism can justify violence towards its opponents, and that it was notable that it hadn't done so to any striking extent, if at all.
'Luthon64
pgwenthold
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What in the hell are you talking about?
Reichstag speech in 1936:
"Today, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."