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Hitler and Stalin

Besides the logical problems...fundies should be reminded that both were raised in culturally religious communities that would have stressed the values that fundies appreciate...both served as alter boys or otherwise participated in church youth programs...Stalin actually went to a seminary. It is just as logical to say, it seems to me, that the seeds of their terror was planted in the wholesom atmosphere of church ritual and catichisms...they may have been athiests (it is unclear exactly what Hitler believed) but their sense of power, how to use it, ritual, patentry, terror, etc. all arguably come directly out of Christian tradition.

Now, your fundie friends will argue that ... well Hitler was raised a Catholic and Stalin an Easatern Orthodox...two false Christian doctrines, as it were, but than they have to start parsing christian beliefs and drawing distinctions amongst believers as inherently doomed or evil, etc. In short, it isn't just athiests, it is in fact anyone who doesn't belive exactly as they believe who are problematic...and not only is that logically problematic, it is bigoted and small minded in the extreme...and than you can accuse them of conflating Nazism and Stalinism with Catholiscism and maybe get them to admit their anti-semitism as well. You will be well on your way to a moral/pyric victory, if nothing else.
 
The Don said:
The bloodiest civil war in history was the Taiping (sp) rebellion in China in the 1850s and 1860s. Tens of millions of people were killed on both sides. The leader of one side was a self proclaimed Christian. Therefore all Christians are evil.
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The An Shi Rebellion quite posebly had a higher death toll.
 
losman said:
I have had some discussions with some fundies and they keep throwing at me that because Hitler and Stalin were atheists it proves we are evil. Does anyone else see this same garbage thrown at them?
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Not JP Losman I hope...I'm hoping for Craig Nall...

but anyhow, I've done it meself, I'm no fundie, and I usually do it in response to *these Christians were evil therefore Christianity is evil*. It's fun!

-Elliot
 
Derail alert!

Was Hitler short? I recall reading somewhere that he stood approx. 5’11” and was fairly big-boned. (He may not have done quite all of his brawling by proxy in the early days.) Perhaps he was one of those rare tallish men who give the impression of being short.* Or perhaps people wanted him to be short so that they could loathe him even more.

*Richard Nixon was like that. I’ve talked to people who knew him or saw him, and they say he was perhaps 5’6” tall. In fact, he also is supposed to have stood 5’11”. But Nixon was weird in so many ways, who can tell?
 
elliotfc said:
but anyhow, I've done it meself, I'm no fundie, and I usually do it in response to *these Christians were evil therefore Christianity is evil*. It's fun!
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I can't think of intellectual dishonesty as "fun," whether it's on the believer's or the non-believer's part. Or both. Neither argument is valid. Two wrongs, etc., blah.

[edit] If I were the believer in this instance, I'd prefer to correct the one saying "these Christians were evil therefore Christianity is evil" and so gain the Moral High Ground. Even if it didn't help my argument, it'd be shiny and fun to wear on special days.
 
Adolf's vital statistics

He was just under 5' 10", and weighed about 155 lbs. as an adult. While a hypochondriac, he was actually fairly healthy until wound down by war and the Bomb Plot of July 20, 1944. That bomb plot actually cut down on an increasingly trembly right arm.

After that, however, his health deteriorated steeply. He was likely to have been suffering from Parkinson's late in his life.
 
Also on the derail...I think Stalin was quite small...5'2 ish? Maybe a little taller but not much...oh, yes and the whithered arm and pocked-marked face also added to the appeal...
 
Adolf's vital statistics

He was just under 5' 10", and weighed about 155 lbs. as an adult. While a hypochondriac, he was actually fairly healthy until wound down by war and the Bomb Plot of July 20, 1944. That bomb plot actually cut down on an increasingly trembly right arm.

After that, however, his health deteriorated steeply. He was likely to have been suffering from Parkinson's late in his life. That, along with the crazy drugs his quack doctor gave him, and the stress of war, and his strange hours, wore him into physical wreckage.
 
Meffy said:
I can't think of intellectual dishonesty as "fun," whether it's on the believer's or the non-believer's part. Or both. Neither argument is valid. Two wrongs, etc., blah.
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Think outside the box.

If I were the believer in this instance, I'd prefer to correct the one saying "these Christians were evil therefore Christianity is evil" and so gain the Moral High Ground. Even if it didn't help my argument, it'd be shiny and fun to wear on special days.
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Can't argue with fun. Fun's fun. And it's just fun. It isn't more than that. It might be. I wasn't saying it was.

-Elliot
 
It is possible that Hitler may have been an atheist by some definitions of the word. Keep in mind that, even on a fairly reasonable site such as this, people are unable to agree on what atheist means.

Some people define atheist as someone who believes there is not a god. That's a fairly restrictive definition, and reduces the number of people who would be considered atheists. Other people define atheist as simply someone who does not believe in a god. That's a much more inclusive definition and increases the number of people who would be considered atheists. Then of course one must clarify what believe in means, and again it is possible to define that loosely or narrowly.

It would be good to find out just how the people you are arguing with define atheist. Who knows? By their definition they might be right that Hitler was an atheist -- but it may turn out that, by their definition, so are millions of other people they are less eager to call atheists.

One thing does seem fairly clear: if Hitler was an atheist, he was not open about it. He rose to power by claiming to be religious and by appealing to religious conservatives for support. If Hitler is an example of a dangerous atheist, then the danger is from people who purport to be religious and appeal to religious people to support them in furtherance of policies based on hatred and fear of scapegoat groups.

We can be no more certain of what is in George Bush's heart than what was in Hitler's. Both men said publicly that they believed in god and were motivated by trying to carry out god's wishes in their policies. If the fundies you are talking with are concerned about how Hitler used religious justifications to gain support for his campaign against the Jews, one obvious parallel is current politicians who are using religious justifications to gain support for campaigns against gays.

Outspoken atheists, on the other hand, would seem not to be something your friends need to worry about -- at least not as far as a Hitler parallel goes. And if those atheists are promoting a secular humanist agenda -- liberal policies based on respect and tolerance -- that would further reduce the need for the people you are talking with to be worried about atheists.
 
Curnir said:
Aye I view communism as a religion.

Idol worship --- check
Belief in paradise --- check
enbalming dead leaders (well one at least) --- check
Calim to have monopoly on the ultimate truth --- check
the leader can do no wrong (well unless he happens to die then the new leader(s) might admit that he made errors) ---check
religious songs (well sort of anyway) --- check
striving to convert the "heathens" --- check
"holy" books --- check
Nice red uniforms --- hmm no that's the spanish inquisition
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I’ve often thought Communism had a number of odd similarities to Christianity. Like:

An Eden, in the hypothetical peaceful, egalitarian and communal hunter-gatherer cultures from which humanity began.

A Fall, in the invention of personal property, that lead to the sinful conditions we see today.

An Armageddon, where the workers will rise up through violent struggle.

And a Heaven, where Communism reigns and the Eden is regained.

Does anyone else think so, or am I just doing some erroneous pattern seeking?
 
Scot C. Trypal said:
I’ve often thought Communism had a number of odd similarities to Christianity. Like:

An Eden, in the hypothetical peaceful, egalitarian and communal hunter-gatherer cultures from which humanity began.

A Fall, in the invention of personal property, that lead to the sinful conditions we see today.

An Armageddon, where the workers will rise up through violent struggle.

And a Heaven, where Communism reigns and the Eden is regained.

Does anyone else think so, or am I just doing some erroneous pattern seeking?
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Scott you done good. You also left out they both start with the letter C.

-Elliot
 
Scott you done good. You also left out they both start with the letter C.
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LOL, there’s that too.

I take it you don’t think the communist worldview was influenced by Christianity?
 
Scot C. Trypal said:
LOL, there’s that too.

I take it you don’t think the communist worldview was influenced by Christianity?
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How could it not be? I also think atheism is influenced by Christianity. I wasn't trying to be dismissive Scott, I just think this can go down the John Wilkes Booth/Lee Harvey Oswald route real easy, particularly with smark alecks like me.

-Elliot
 
Hitler was also a vegetarian, so I guess vegetarians are also evil. I rememeber reading that he liked animals and found it hard to eat them; of course, he had no problem ordering the killing of humans. I find that type of thinking to be very similar to the religious thinking expressed over so many centuries.

Religious leaders have a long history of persecuting those that don't agree with them. In the name of God, they have killed more people than Hitler or Stalin ever have, and with much greater cruelty.

So if anyone asks about the lack of faith expressed by Hitler and Stalin, I would point out all those "faithful" leaders involved in the "Inquisition" and various other heretical hunts over the last 1700 years.
 
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elliotfc said:
How could it not be? I also think atheism is influenced by Christianity. I wasn't trying to be dismissive Scott, I just think this can go down the John Wilkes Booth/Lee Harvey Oswald route real easy, particularly with smark alecks like me.

-Elliot
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Sure. I don’t mean to do that.

You’ve made me try to remember why I was struck by this in the first place. It was the Eden that got me wondering. Why would Communism propose a time in the past when everything was good in human civilization, when there doesn’t seem to be any substantial evidence for it? Seems humans have been warring and cruel throughout our past, even when we were hunting and gathering. That’s what made me think they were sort of building on already existing scaffolding—Eden, fall, war, heaven (or a sort of “God’s kingdom” on earth). But again, it’s just a similar pattern and I’d like to know if there’s more to it. Are there, say, records of early Communist references to Christianity?

Also consider, “And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.”, is in Acts. Taking in according to ability and giving out according to need sounds a bit plagiarized to me.
 
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