Hitler and Stalin

[losman]

I have had some discussions with some fundies and they keep throwing at me that because Hitler and Stalin were atheists it proves we are evil. Does anyone else see this same garbage thrown at them?

 

[geni]

For the hitler reference reply with Godwin's Law.

 

[CP489]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

There's some biased info. Hitler certainly may have been an atheist, but he at least was ignored, if not assisted by the church.

 

[RandFan]

I have had some discussions with some fundies and they keep throwing at me that because Hitler and Stalin were atheists it proves we are evil. Does anyone else see this same garbage thrown at them?

I used to make a similar argument. It's a fallacy. I think it is a genetic fallacy but I'm not going to take the time to look it up.

In any event your thread would probably be more appropriate in the Politics, Current Events, and Social Issues forum.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Try pointing out that it isn't true.

Arguments for/against religion : [swiki]"Hitler was an Atheist"[/swiki]

"For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties." --- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Then remind them about that ol' "bearing false witness" thing.

 

[RandFan]

For the Hitler reference reply with Godwin's Law.

Godwin's law isn't proof of anything except that the longer an argument lasts the more likely that a comparison to Hitler or Nazis will be made. It would have no effect on anyone who was unfamiliar with on-line discussion forums and Godwin doesn't invalidate arguments it simply illustrates how desperate someone is to win an argument when they have to trot out that chestnut.

In any event, stick with the logic of the argument. In this case it is a fallacy pure and simple.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I used to make a similar argument. It's a fallacy. I think it is a genetic fallacy but I'm not going to take the time to look it up.

[swiki]Ad Hominem[/swiki]. I think for a [swiki]Genetic Fallacy[/swiki] Hitler would have to be the inventor of atheism.

Whearas in fact atheism was invented by Darwin as an excuse to have sex with monkeys.

 

[RandFan]

[swiki]Ad Hominem[/swiki]. I think for a [swiki]Genetic Fallacy[/swiki] Hitler would have to be the inventor of atheism.

Whearas in fact atheism was invented by Darwin as an excuse to have sex with monkeys.

Well, "genetic fallacy" is an ad hominem fallacy of relevancy but you are right.

 

[Dr Adequate]

It's hard to say whether Stalin was an atheist or just another of those jealous monotheistic gods.

"O great Stalin, O leader of the peoples,
Thou who brought man to birth.
Thou who fructifies the earth,
Thou who restorest to centuries,
Thou who makest bloom the spring,
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...
Thou, splendor of my spring, O thou,
Sun reflected by millions of hearts." *

 

[blutoski]

I used to make a similar argument. It's a fallacy. I think it is a genetic fallacy but I'm not going to take the time to look it up.

It's a hasty generalization. Going from one example to the class as a whole. Assuming it's true that Hitler was an atheist, the following could also be true:

Germans are unethical
Austrian-born Germans are unethical
Men are unethical
Short men are unethical
White men are unethical
Brown eyed men are unethical
Conservatives are unethical
People with bottle-brush mustaches are unethical
War veterans are unethical
Decorated war veterans are unethical
Ex-art students are unethical
People who value family are unethical
People who think a good government can be judged by a rising standard of living are unethical
People raised religious are unethical
People who believe God has a plan for their people are unethical
People who are part of an organization that has historically been disrespectful of Jews are unethical
People who are part of an organization that has historically been disrespectful of Moslems are unethical
People who are part of an organization that has historically been disrespectful of non-Christians are unethical
People who think natural cures are better than technological medicine are unethical
People who think health is all about eating natural foods and exercising are unethical
People who hate communists are unethical


Why is just the one factor being highlighted?

 

[burrahobbit]

Hitler was definitely not an atheist. I think there is a HUGE thread on one of the other forums (fora?) on this.

Incidentally Stalin was a seminary student and nearly entered the priesthood.

Well trained in Orthodox theology he was. Something to do with his future actions it may have had?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Hitler and Stalin?

Cute couple, but I don't see it lasting.

 

[Darat]

I have had some discussions with some fundies and they keep throwing at me that because Hitler and Stalin were atheists it proves we are evil. Does anyone else see this same garbage thrown at them?

Simple answer - yes. It's happened many times in this very section of the forum.

And for anyone who wants to add to the discussion regarding Hitler's actual beliefs and if he was an atheist or not I suggest you read this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167

My personal conclusion is that the only thing Hitler believed in is whatever passed through his head at any given moment. It would seem he was quite capable of believing 6 contradictory and impossible things before breakfast.

 

[Curnir]

It's hard to say whether Stalin was an atheist or just another of those jealous monotheistic gods.

"O great Stalin, O leader of the peoples,
Thou who brought man to birth.
Thou who fructifies the earth,
Thou who restorest to centuries,
Thou who makest bloom the spring,
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...
Thou, splendor of my spring, O thou,
Sun reflected by millions of hearts." *

Aye I view communism as a religion.

Idol worship --- check
Belief in paradise --- check
enbalming dead leaders (well one at least) --- check
Calim to have monopoly on the ultimate truth --- check
the leader can do no wrong (well unless he happens to die then the new leader(s) might admit that he made errors) ---check
religious songs (well sort of anyway) --- check
striving to convert the "heathens" --- check
"holy" books --- check
Nice red uniforms --- hmm no that's the spanish inquisition

 

[David Swidler]

Thank you for the opening for today's requisite Monty Python reference.

 

[Anacoluthon64]

I have had some discussions with some fundies and they keep throwing at me that because Hitler and Stalin were atheists it proves we are evil. Does anyone else see this same garbage thrown at them?

With alarming and predictable regularity.

To refute it is, however, not difficult through judicious application of propositional calculus:

Proposition P = "Hitler and Stalin were atheists"
Proposition Q = "we are evil"

Symbolically, the fundies' argument is P => Q

But formal logic requires ~Q => ~P if P => Q is true. A little reflection will show ~Q => ~P to be a non sequitur, i.e. a false inference. Consequently, P => Q must be false.



'Luthon64

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, you and your formal logic. What place does logic have in religion?

 

[The Don]

The bloodiest civil war in history was the Taiping (sp) rebellion in China in the 1850s and 1860s. Tens of millions of people were killed on both sides. The leader of one side was a self proclaimed Christian. Therefore all Christians are evil.

Of course it could be claimed that he wasn't a true Christian but that's another kettle of fish altogether

 

[Anacoluthon64]

Oh, you and your formal logic. What place does logic have in religion?

Would you accept that an adequate sufficiency gives the illusion that it's not faith-based in toto so at least we have something to argue about? Call me perverse, but I have this compulsion always to cloud an issue with logic...

'Luthon64

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Adolf and Joe

Hitler grew up in a Catholic family, but rejected doctrinaire Catholicism. He did believe in "Providence" over "God," as he believed in his divine mission to lead Germany.

Stalin was a seminary student, who switched to radicalism. I'm not clear and it's not clear if he was religious, atheistic, or just manipulative, paranoid, and self-serving. I vote for manipulative, paranoid, and self-serving.

Both persecuted organized religion. Both states sought to replace Christianity, Judaism, and other religions. Himmler was the main power in replacing Christianity with a bizarre mixture of Norse Odinism and occult worship. The SS were to be a core of Teutonic knights with their own weird religion, replacing Christianity.

Stalin's Communism had the cult of personality that worshipped semi-diving humans: Lenin and Stalin, with Leon Trotsky turned into a devil or anti-Christ. Stalin's titles included "The Shining Sun of Humanity" and "The Greatest Leader in History," and "Father of Orphans."

I'll let sociologists and psychologists figure these out.