Immigration without restrictions

[shecky]

Yes. The illegal employer exploits rather than helps. Force the bad actors out and legal employers will lobby congress for a more rational immigration policy. It's the lawlessness that destroys the free market in labor.

Illegal employer exploits the

willingly exploited

. In reality, exploitation is a two way street.

It seems quite unwise to criminalize the economic base of the country (employers) in favor of bigger, more corrupt government (employers lobbying congress), especially when the economy shows few signs of suffering detrimental effects as a result of illegal immigration.

The "lawlessness" of illegal immigrant labor is the closest thing to a free market in labor that exists in the US.

 

[shecky]

Originally Posted by Earthborn :
'Keeping the bad ones out of the country' is not a legitimate goal, because if you keep 'bad ones' out of the country it means that other countries will have to deal with them instead. It makes better sense to put the 'bad ones' in jail than it is to expect countries to keep their borders closed for 'bad ones' and as a result make it difficult for 'good ones' to live where they want.

I find that it is a legitimate goal, as the benefits outweight the downs.

I think it's a legitimate goal, but I question the effectiveness and where the bar is set.

Yes, that's what a lot of immigration restriction advocates fail to realise. If unrestricted immigration causes such great problems, the same problems should arise when people are moving between states, provinces or even cities. Still they don't seem to dispute the right of people to move within their own country to find work elsewhere.
Ther are several large differences between those situations. The biggest one is that most illegal immigrants don't have the same values, language, culture.

Neither do Mormons, Cajuns, or Amish.

In the end, the only value that matters is the drive to make a good living. That is the unifying factor of the US.

In addition, I still like the notion that the US is the place where you can be whoever you want. I don't particularly like some of the things in American culture, and reject them completely. Should I be deported for not joining in lockstep?

As an extra statment I would want to say that a country should aim for a labor base that fits its resource base and technology.

I have little faith that the country could, as a collective, determine what the correct labor base should be. Why not let the market take care of it? Whoud that not ultimately be the best choice?

Without restrictions this can't be regulated and most immigrants would move to systems that can't support them.

This doesn't make sense. Why would someone move to a place that has less promise than the place the leave? The employment opportunities are all the regulation we need. If there were no employment opportunities in the US, people wouldn't want to come to work.

 

[AWPrime]

In addition, I still like the notion that the US is the place where you can be whoever you want. I don't particularly like some of the things in American culture, and reject them completely. Should I be deported for not joining in lockstep?

But you know of them and know how to live in the US.

I have little faith that the country could, as a collective, determine what the correct labor base should be. Why not let the market take care of it? Whoud that not ultimately be the best choice?

The market has little interrest in that.

This doesn't make sense. Why would someone move to a place that has less promise than the place the leave? The employment opportunities are all the regulation we need. If there were no employment opportunities in the US, people wouldn't want to come to work.

Why would anyone hide inside the landging gear section of an airplane? Why would anyone lock themselfs in a container with 40 others? Why would anyone in eastern europe actually believe that they were offered a job as a waitress, which almost allways turn out to be a job in the sex industry?

All of these things happen while there are legal ways to get here.

One can't put a limit on human stupidity.

 

[shecky]

But you know of them and know how to live in the US.

Point is, newcomers should be whoever they want to be. I guess it's just a romantic notion about how I feel about the core American value.

I have little faith that the country could, as a collective, determine what the correct labor base should be. Why not let the market take care of it? Whoud that not ultimately be the best choice?

The market has little interrest in that.

Explain. This makes no sense.

Why would anyone hide inside the landging gear section of an airplane? Why would anyone lock themselfs in a container with 40 others? Why would anyone in eastern europe actually believe that they were offered a job as a waitress, which almost allways turn out to be a job in the sex industry?

All of these things happen while there are legal ways to get here.

One can't put a limit on human stupidity.

There are legal ways to get into the country. However, it's nearly impossible unless you have a relative to sponsor you, or a employer with a really good excuse. US immigration policy beyond unrealistic in this regard, completely out of touch with reality. Precisely why immigration rules need to be completely revamped, lest they continue to be ignored.

 

[AWPrime]

Explain. This makes no sense.

as company you want to make as much profit as possible. One way to do this is to make labor cheaper. This can be done by increasing the labor force.

There are legal ways to get into the country. However, it's nearly impossible unless you have a relative to sponsor you, or a employer with a really good excuse. US immigration policy beyond unrealistic in this regard, completely out of touch with reality. Precisely why immigration rules need to be completely revamped, lest they continue to be ignored.

Actually those examples were from here. But my point stays the same; people wil always have unfounded romantic notions about the foreign countries (grass is greener on the other side), with this comes stupidity.

 

[Earthborn]

This can be done by increasing the labor force.

What do you mean with 'labor force' ? How do companies increase it and how does that affect the price of labour?

people wil always have unfounded romantic notions about the foreign ountries

I don't have a lot of unfounded romantic notions about Belgium, Germany. Not even of the United States. With slowly expanding information technology, I think a lot of romantic notions that people may have about other countries may be dispelled.

 

[AWPrime]

What do you mean with 'labor force' ? How do companies increase it and how does that affect the price of labour?

labor force = the people available for work.

When the labor force is bigger than the demand, then the law of 'supply and demand' will make labor cheaper.

With slowly expanding information technology, I think a lot of romantic notions that people may have about other countries may be dispelled.

We are trying, but it doesn't seem to work now does it?

 

[Earthborn]

When the labor force is bigger than the demand, then the law of 'supply and demand' will make labor cheaper.

That still does not explain how companies can influence it.

We are trying, but it doesn't seem to work now does it?

It works better than it used to (before information technology) and it will probably work even better in the future. It doesn't hurt to invest in technology for the Third World, not only does it dispel any romantic notions people might have about the First World, it will also make their lives better and possibly turn them into consumers we could sell stuff. Or buy from.

 

[AWPrime]

That still does not explain how companies can influence it.

By encouraging immigration (of cheap labor).