Converting from Christianity to Atheism

[elliotfc]

Because the object of religious belief on any kind is to suspend disbelief in the unreal. Think about it. Why do you go to church, bible study, fellowship or whatever on a regular weekly basis? Why are there so many exhortations to keep the faith, keep fellowship etc that you've heard? How many sermons have you heard about the perils of backsliding? Because reality represents a constant challenge to those religious beliefs. All the time. Every day. Why do so many sermons warn against reason and logic and the application of those things to the religion itself? Must people prefer insanity to sanity?

I disagree. Go to the start. Does "disbelief in the unreal" exist before religious belief? Really think that one through...come up with a prehistoric scenario that we can work with or something.

You say that reality represents a constant challenge to religious belief...but at least where I hang, it's just the opposite. Reality reinforces religious belief. If you were correct in your thesis, religious belief wouldn't be all that prevalent. Religions would collapse just like Puritanism collapsed. Puritanism *could not* handle reality, so it failed. I'm happy to apply Darwinian selection to this one.

Sermons warning against reason and logic? Got any textual material to back up that one? You've apparently decided that religious people are unreasonable, illogical, and insane, am I right?

It's funny, but now as a naturalist and agnostic, I need no reinforcement, since my beliefs are congruent with testable reality.

Isn't this mere recognition reinforcement?

There is no cognitive dissonance. I don't need to meet with others to sing and dance about the law of gravity or the theory of evolution or the wonders of science. I don't spend any time on some ancient book of dubious history and morality looking for some secret pearls of wisdom.

But you do spend time in this forum. No, of course you don't need to. Then it's a way to pass the time? I guess you have to do something.

Plus, it frees up Wednesday evenings and the whole of Sunday.

But again, you have to do something to pass time. As do religious people.

When you shake it down, what then matters? Is it up to the individual? What would you recommend that other people do? And if they refuse, does that matter?

-Elliot

 

[kurious_kathy]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
5. Respect Mom And Dad
6. Don't Kill
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
8. Don't Steal
9. Always Tell The Truth
10. Be Content With What You Have

When I repented just a little less than 2 years ago I had to compare myself to these standards and realize I needed a Savior. Only Jesus can redeem us from being lost. I saw myself as lost because I had broken most if not all of these commandments.

How about you guys, ever told a lie or stole anything? The writing is on the wall none of us has lived up to God's commands. The difference is when we finally start to see it and have that certain prickling in our heart that tells us we need to do something to get right with the one who created us. I have this conviction everyday of my life now and it humbles me.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God

Unless we replace the word God with "me" in each of the above, in which case I follow them all faithfully, my life could very easily be construed as the very anithesis of these meaningless rules.

5. Respect Mom And Dad

Yep, but only because they are worthy of it, not just because they happened to perform the specific sex act that brought me into existence.

6. Don't Kill

I'm usually pretty good with this one.

7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse

Irrelevant.

8. Don't Steal

Check.

9. Always Tell The Truth

I always do, naturally, but that could be a lie.

10. Be Content With What You Have

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[elliotfc]

Who's the goalie in your avatar Marq? Good year to be a Sabres fan eh? I've got $500, 15 to 1 odds on them winning the Cup. -Elliot

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Who's the goalie in your avatar Marq? Good year to be a Sabres fan eh? I've got $500, 15 to 1 odds on them winning the Cup. -Elliot

Fredrik Norrena, Finnish National Team, currently backing up Niittymaki at the IIHF Worlds. And, yes, the Sabres are looking mighty impressive, and are my pick to win the East, although Carolina will be a tough hurdle, especially if Cole makes it back.

We have a Playoffs thread you're more than welcome to join, lest we continue our derail.

 

[I less than three logic]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
5. Respect Mom And Dad
6. Don't Kill
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
8. Don't Steal
9. Always Tell The Truth
10. Be Content With What You Have

George Carlin did a good job of addressing these and came up with a more practical or realistic list of 3 commandments.

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10? …Well let me ask you this- when they were making this [Rule 8] up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision!

Carlin’s 3 Commandments:
1) Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.

2) Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

3) Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

 

[Diamond]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

This makes the assumption that there is a God, and that he/she/it cares about such things.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All

Which one? And why? Is this God so short of self-esteem?

2. Worship Only God

Which one? How do we know we've got the right one?

3. Respect God's Name

Jesus H Christ! Do we have to?

4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God

I nominate Mondays. I hate Mondays.

5. Respect Mom And Dad

I've buried both of them. How much respect do you want?

6. Don't Kill

I think it's safe to say that I've followed this one. However the dominant theme of the Old Testament appears to be the concept of "Holy War", and I'm sure righteous killing was the done thing.

Oh, and what happened to Jeptha's daughter?

7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse

Many people have been. However sometimes the spouses have played away.

8. Don't Steal

Unless God told you that you were supposed to have it in the first place....

9. Always Tell The Truth

Impossible. Language and human nature bear false witness all the time, sometimes for good reason.

10. Be Content With What You Have

I sometimes wonder if a little bit of avarice isn't a good thingg after all.

When I repented just a little less than 2 years ago I had to compare myself to these standards and realize I needed a Savior. Only Jesus can redeem us from being lost. I saw myself as lost because I had broken most if not all of these commandments.

They are not standards. They are designed to fail everybody. I'm only surprised they didn't circumscribe breathing.

How about you guys, ever told a lie or stole anything? The writing is on the wall none of us has lived up to God's commands. The difference is when we finally start to see it and have that certain prickling in our heart that tells us we need to do something to get right with the one who created us. I have this conviction everyday of my life now and it humbles me.

The prickling in my heart is probably indigestion, not false guilt to fail to come up to impossible standards. It's clear that all religions are based on impossible standards and false guilt to propagate themselves.

We're all prone to guilty feelings. The question is to we deify them?

I think not.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Unfortunately, none of these are convincing arguments.

Facts are always good arguments. I do agree that facts are, often, not convincing evidence to theists.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all.

Strange. None of those 10 commandments even comes close to mentioning a savior, let alone Jesus F Christ.

 

[Robin]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All

Nope. My little kids are what I love most of all

2. Worship Only God

Well I don't worship anything that isn't a God. Do I get a technical pass? I will award myself half.

3. Respect God's Name

A priest friend was impressed that our kids were familiar with the name "Jesus", until he twigged in what context they had heard it. I guess that is a fail.

4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God

Half mark for taking a day to rest

5. Respect Mom And Dad

Yep.

6. Don't Kill

Yep.

7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse

Yep

8. Don't Steal

Yep

9. Always Tell The Truth

Have trouble with "do I look fat in this?"

10. Be Content With What You Have

Yep - 70 or so years on a mostly harmless planet. No desire for the "eternal bliss" bribe.

That is six out of ten. Do I need a saviour? I looked up Genesis but couldn't find the scoring scheme. Something like:

0 : Forget it kiddo, no saviour could save you!
1-3 : You need to get yourself a saviour
4-6 : Not bad, but a saviour is still recommended
7-9 : Wow, impressive - are you sure you were telling the truth?
10 : Sorry Son, you are not elibible to enter.

 

[elliotfc]

This makes the assumption that there is a God, and that he/she/it cares about such things.

Yes, if the God exists and tries to communicate said things, it kind of follows that the God cares about said things.

Which one? And why? Is this God so short of self-esteem?

This one is easy. The God of Abraham. The God of the Jews. The God who interacted with the prophets, like Moses. I don't know if it has to do with self-esteem. There could be other reasons too. The God says that the people should have no other gods except for him, so it's pretty clear which God is being talked about, if you were following the story up to that point.

As humans, it is easy to want to think that God thinks like us, so we'd chalk it up to self-esteem or something. If God is the source, the prime mover, the creator, Love, whatever, recognizing that seems sensible to me on some level, so sensible that the self-esteem question really doesn't register to me.

Which one? How do we know we've got the right one?

Again, you have to follow the story. The God who says he is the right one is the right one. If you disagree you can go with the golden calf.

I nominate Mondays. I hate Mondays.

Yes, but if it's Mondays, then Mondays would become more like Sundays, in which case you'd hate Tuesdays, and you can figure out what happens when you nominate Tuesdays.

I've buried both of them. How much respect do you want?

No pissing on their graves, with all due respect. Flowers once a year? Have you ever seen Cemetery Man? Don't have sex on their graves, unless they asked you to.

I think it's safe to say that I've followed this one. However the dominant theme of the Old Testament appears to be the concept of "Holy War", and I'm sure righteous killing was the done thing.

Right, this is the whole killing/murder question.

Oh, and what happened to Jeptha's daughter?

Yeah, and God didn't tell him to do it.

Impossible. Language and human nature bear false witness all the time, sometimes for good reason.

With that attitude it certainly is impossible!

I think this has a very legal meaning, like, before a judge, you shouldn't bear false witness. I don't extrapolate it to complimenting how a neighbor's lawn looks if you really think it looks crappy. I could be wrong I guess.

They are not standards. They are designed to fail everybody. I'm only surprised they didn't circumscribe breathing.

No, they are standards. They don't fail everybody, or, maybe only a few fail everybody. As for the breathing comment...don't be ridiculous!

We're all prone to guilty feelings. The question is to we deify them?

I think not.

I agree.

-Elliot

 

[Diamond]

I disagree. Go to the start. Does "disbelief in the unreal" exist before religious belief? Really think that one through...come up with a prehistoric scenario that we can work with or something.

Certainly. The oldest religious beliefs are animistic, the notion that certain places, animals, substances contain or embody a sentient spirit that must be negotiated with.

You say that reality represents a constant challenge to religious belief...but at least where I hang, it's just the opposite. Reality reinforces religious belief. If you were correct in your thesis, religious belief wouldn't be all that prevalent. Religions would collapse just like Puritanism collapsed. Puritanism *could not* handle reality, so it failed. I'm happy to apply Darwinian selection to this one.

Not quite. Anthropologically, religious belief is there in all human societies. It can never be "got rid of" or "superceded". The function of religion is to not be proven false, and so to do this, explanations which involve reason are curtailed and may be seen as evil. Religious propositions are designed not to be falsifiable, but are brought to the fore to explain the unexpected and the unexplained. Since there is always more unexpected and unexplained phenomena than known or explicable, then religious belief will always be there.

Sermons warning against reason and logic? Got any textual material to back up that one? You've apparently decided that religious people are unreasonable, illogical, and insane, am I right?

No, I haven't. I'm saying that there is no statement in the Bible in favor of intelligence or rationality. Religious people are not insane (I'm talking generally). That which they profess is insane and illogical and unreasonable.

But you do spend time in this forum. No, of course you don't need to. Then it's a way to pass the time? I guess you have to do something.

I don't have to be here, nor is my presence required, nor will it damn me for all eternity if I never post here again. Nor do I have to profess any common set of beliefs.

I don't have to profess belief in the unreal. That's the fundamental difference between religion and agnosticism.

When you shake it down, what then matters? Is it up to the individual? What would you recommend that other people do? And if they refuse, does that matter?

-Elliot

It clearly matters to religious people who go to great lengths to convince the irreligious that their religion is the Truth(tm). I'm not recommending anything. I give my opinion based on my experience, not because I'm trying to proselytize.

Leave it to the individual? Certainly. Because ultimately that's the only real freedom we have.

 

[elliotfc]

Certainly. The oldest religious beliefs are animistic, the notion that certain places, animals, substances contain or embody a sentient spirit that must be negotiated with.

OK...so what is the "disbelief in the unreal" in this situation? Your phrase, not mine. Did they not believe in the unreal sentient spirits before they believed in them?

Not quite. Anthropologically, religious belief is there in all human societies. It can never be "got rid of" or "superceded". The function of religion is to not be proven false, and so to do this, explanations which involve reason are curtailed and may be seen as evil.

The function of religion is to not be proven false. The prime function, or one function among many? You would agree that there are many "explanations" in religion. Are they all unreasonable? Most of them? Some of them?

I dunno, I never learned this stuff in my anthro classes, I confess to being mystified by what you're talking about.

Religious propositions are designed not to be falsifiable, but are brought to the fore to explain the unexpected and the unexplained.

Consciously or unconsciously? What about the propositions that are falsifiable, like the Ghost Dance?

[No, I haven't. I'm saying that there is no statement in the Bible in favor of intelligence or rationality. Religious people are not insane (I'm talking generally). That which they profess is insane and illogical and unreasonable.[/QUOTE]

So things that are professed can be insane? I think insanity pertains to people, but I'll let you extend the definition I guess.

Boy. Are there statements in a science textbook in favor of intelligence or rationality? Are there statements in the Bible in favor of breathing? Are there statements in the Bible in favor of not banging your head against rocks?

I don't have to be here, nor is my presence required, nor will it damn me for all eternity if I never post here again. Nor do I have to profess any common set of beliefs.

Agreed. Nobody has to do anything. Not me. Not you. Not the fundamentalist who lives next door. You do things. They do things. When they do things, you come up with these brilliant anthropological pronouncements. When you do things...well, I'll keep my opinions on the psychology of your behavior to myself.

I don't have to profess belief in the unreal. That's the fundamental difference between religion and agnosticism.

I don't have to profess belief in the unreal either, and I'm religious. I don't see your point. Nobody has to do anything.

It clearly matters to religious people who go to great lengths to convince the irreligious that their religion is the Truth(tm). I'm not recommending anything. I give my opinion based on my experience, not because I'm trying to proselytize.[//QUOTE]

Religious people also give their opinions based on experience.

-Elliot

 

[Diamond]

Elliotfc

Since you've clearly decided that the best defence is to mock my replies with inane responses and personal attacks, I'll leave the thread to you.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Facts are always good arguments. I do agree that facts are, often, not convincing evidence to theists.

Facts, OK You came from somewhere, right? And you are definitely headed somewhere through your journey called life, right? But do you know where it was that you came from and forsure where you will end up?

I don't think any of us no forsure what each day will bring. Only God knows. So see we aren't in control, He is. Each day is a gift that only God can give. I myself do not believe that the grave is all there is.

It's strange to me now but when I look back on my life now as a believer I realize He was always there just trying to get my attention. A life without God only left me feeling abandoned and alone. It's not this way anymore. All I can share is I really believe each of us has a God shaped whole inside our heart, the question is whether we will invite Him in? I did and there is no more longing or emptiness, God satisfies!

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Facts, OK You came from somewhere, right?

The backseat of a Buick, actually.

And you are definitely headed somewhere through your journey called life, right?

Hoboken.

But do you know where it was that you came from and forsure where you will end up?

Again, Hoboken.

I don't think any of us no forsure what each day will bring, only God knows.

What makes you think God knows, just because no-one else is sure?

So see we aren't in control, He is. Each day is a gift that only God can give. I myself do not believe that the grave is all there is.

Of course not. There is also, as noted prior, Hoboken.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Facts, OK You came from somewhere, right?

Basic reproduction classes are offered at most k-12 programs. I suggest you attend one.

And you are definitely headed somewhere through your journey called life, right?

There are many destinations in my journey.

But do you know where it was that you came from and forsure where you will end up?

Nope. No person knows these things, as there are too many factors in life to know exactly where they'll end up. I do know this for a fact, I will die and so will everyone else. Death is the final destination.

I don't think any of us no forsure what each day will bring. Only God knows. So see we aren't in control, He is. Each day is a gift that only God can give. I myself do not believe that the grave is all there is.

Which god?

It's strange to me now but when I look back on my life now as a believer I realize He was always there just trying to get my attention. A life without God only left me feeling abandoned and alone. It's not this way anymore. All I can share is I really believe each of us has a God shaped whole inside our heart, the question is whether we will invite Him in? I did and there is no more longing or emptiness, God satisfies!

Which god is this? Do you have evidence of your god? Do you realize that atheists often lead full and satisfying lives as well?

 

[wolfgirl]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
5. Respect Mom And Dad
6. Don't Kill
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
8. Don't Steal
9. Always Tell The Truth
10. Be Content With What You Have

When I repented just a little less than 2 years ago I had to compare myself to these standards and realize I needed a Savior. Only Jesus can redeem us from being lost. I saw myself as lost because I had broken most if not all of these commandments.

I think most of us are down with the last six of these, more or less. It's the first four most of us have trouble with. They don't really prescribe any sort of moral standards at all, just ways to worship and please the invisible sky-friend.

How about you guys, ever told a lie or stole anything? The writing is on the wall none of us has lived up to God's commands. The difference is when we finally start to see it and have that certain prickling in our heart that tells us we need to do something to get right with the one who created us. I have this conviction everyday of my life now and it humbles me.

All of us have probably done things wrong. We regret it even though we don't believe in these commandments. We regret it because it was wrong. We know right from wrong without these commandments. People of other religions also know right from wrong without these commandments. Do you think that yours is the only religion that tells people how to behave decently to one another?

 

[wolfgirl]

Each day is a gift

To quote Tony Soprano, "But does it always have to be a pair of socks?"

 

[kurious_kathy]

Do you think that yours is the only religion that tells people how to behave decently to one another?

Not at all. God is love and I believe He knows which of us are capable of loving Him and eachother. The problem is there are many forms of religion which are considered false religions. It's up to each of us to not be deceived.

Jesus said He was the only way to the Father, that is something we all need to accept. God said it, I believe it. No matter what this world puts us through, we are His. I know there is an eternity to look forward to just by knowing and sharing this one truth with others. I hope we will all come to know love and find salvation.

It's strange but this one truth is what unites people from all other places in the world. It doesn't matter your race or religion, it matters whether you believe Jesus died to save you. It's about having a relationship with God through Christ. We are reconciled to God through His Son.