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Loose Change

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I was pointed to a recent CT radio show in which Avery mentions my critique: http://www.theedgeam.com/interviews/Dylan_Avery_05.13.06.mp3

I didn't listen to the whole thing. It's the usual b.s. Here's a summary of what he said about my piece:
These people have nothing to come back with. I'm giving them science and logic and evidence and they're coming back with 'You're a stupid kid.' That doesn't refute anything.
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I wonder if the Loosers think that there will be a time when their ideas will not be in the same group as these:
Every week you'll hear exciting interviews and discussions on topics such as 9/11, Angels, Near Death Experiences, Planetary Anomalies, Political Controversy, Black Ops, Alternative Science, Natural Remedies to Old Earth/Young Earth, Hell, Lost Continents, Aliens, Cryptozology, Space Travel and much, much more! Enlightening, Entertaining and Controversial. "Discovering The Truth Together". You can call Daniel at 800.996.9638 or e-mail at danielott@theedgeam.com
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Regnad Kcin said:
I'm less concerned with most who vigorously cling to the belief in a 9/11 conspiracy, regardless. That they do so as an infant does to its mother's teat is not surprising. Human history shows there never has been a shortage of the credulous, and there likely never will be. This alleged conspiracy, requiring, by its parameters, immeasurable amounts of planning, execution, and follow-up, is so outlandish on its face, I can only be amused and saddened by its adherents, but not surprised. There is, simply, a sucker born every minute.

But what of the more intelligent? I don't mean to say that people who possess an above-average bag of smarts can't be taken in at various times during their lifetime. Absolutely not. What I can't account for is those with a brain perched above their spinal cord who could view Gravy's analysis and deconstruction of "Loose Change" and still go on shouting, "Conspiracy! Inside job! TRUTH!"

Which leaves the thought that there is simply a greater agenda at hand for certain of our fellow citizens. And this little video we've been discussing is merely one tool being used for its construction.
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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

Those that have the above-average bag of smarts in their brain bucket have their views and, as they are intelligent, but don't practice skeptically thinking, their confirmational bias is strong and they do not way the evidence evenly. They are not practicing scientific methodogy, they are practicing intellectual politics.
 
Gravy said:
These people have nothing to come back with. I'm giving them science and logic and evidence and they're coming back with 'You're a stupid kid.' That doesn't refute anything.
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This is what I don't get. When this guy reads your critique, what's his thought process? Do you think he consciously realizes that the criticisms of his work are valid, but since he has so much invested in the movie and the conspiracy he has to stand by them? Or is he truly unreachable, truly delusional? Does he honestly believe that there is no way he's wrong and his opponents are right? Does he think -

(A) Wow. He raises a lot of good points. Many of my facts were wrong, my experts were crackpots, I never personally interviewed anyone. But I've invested so much time and effort into this, I'm better blowing the critiques off by acting like there's no value to his criticisms. Better yet, I'll just characterize his arguments as "he says I'm a stupid kid".

or

(B) Wow. This guy doesn't raise any good points. He just thinks I'm a stupid kid.
 
senorpogo said:
Does he think -

(A) Wow. He raises a lot of good points. Many of my facts were wrong, my experts were crackpots, I never personally interviewed anyone. But I've invested so much time and effort into this, I'm better blowing the critiques off by acting like there's no value to his criticisms. Better yet, I'll just characterize his arguments as "he says I'm a stupid kid".

or

(B) Wow. This guy doesn't raise any good points. He just thinks I'm a stupid kid.
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I think both. The latter is the rationalization of the former. A good technique for people who don't want to admit their wrong doings.
 
I sent Dylan Avery an email today:
Dear Mr. Avery,

Recently I sent you a link to an updated version of my critique of "Loose Change." In case you missed it, you can view the HTML version here http://tinyurl.com/jnfp8 or download the .doc file (with an index to all the subjects covered) here: http://tinyurl.com/epp82

It has been pointed out to me that you have mentioned my critique to the media and have said that it amounts to little more than name-calling, and that it doesn't refute anything.

Since you're confident of that, I'm sure you'll have no hesitation in accepting my challenge to a public, moderated debate about the merits of the claims made in "Loose Change." I've only been aware of these 9/11 conspiracy issues for a few weeks. You have a four-year head start on me, so won't it be satisfying to take your most public detractor "out behind the woodshed?" I'd like to do this as soon as possible. I am available on short notice.

I suggest New York City as the debate location for these reasons:

1) I live there.
2) It is featured prominently in your video
3) Many members of the "9/11 Truth Movement" live here and would be sure to attend
4) It is the media capital of the world

The event would be recorded on video and made available to the public via Google Video and other distribution services. I'm sure you'll agree that a video of you trouncing your most outspoken opponent would be a great selling point for "Loose Change Final Cut."

Please let me know what dates would be good for you..

Sincerely,
Mark Roberts

cc: Jason Bermas, Korey Rowe
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Wow, Gravy, quite a challenge. I'm sure you're aware of the complications in a live debate with a CTer. I'd suggest listening to some other woo debates, such as the Kent Hovind debate on the Infidel Guy show to get an idea on how these guys operate. Lot of smoke and mirrors to cover their complete lack of substance. Of course, this is all assuming that he accepts.
 
bob_kark said:
Wow, Gravy, quite a challenge. I'm sure you're aware of the complications in a live debate with a CTer. I'd suggest listening to some other woo debates, such as the Kent Hovind debate on the Infidel Guy show to get an idea on how these guys operate. Lot of smoke and mirrors to cover their complete lack of substance. Of course, this is all assuming that he accepts.
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I'm perfectly prepared. :D
 
These people have nothing to come back with. I'm giving them science and logic and evidence and they're coming back with 'You're a stupid kid.' That doesn't refute anything.
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Breathtaking. Loose Change 2 is completely devoid of any sort of science, logic, or evidence.

I think Dylan is very ego-invested in this thing now, and he is in deep denial here. My theory is that he actually doesn't even believe his own ********, but now the Loose Change train's left the station and he's hanging on for dear life.
 
Excellent! Also, re-reading my post, I didn't mean to come of sounding as if you were unprepared. Just wanted to point out that people like Hovind fire off so many rounds, it can be a bit difficult to dodge and return fire. Best of luck!
 
dubfan said:
Breathtaking. Loose Change 2 is completely devoid of any sort of science, logic, or evidence.

I think Dylan is very ego-invested in this thing now, and he is in deep denial here. My theory is that he actually doesn't even believe his own ********, but now the Loose Change train's left the station and he's hanging on for dear life.
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The new version of the movie will be interesting to see. In the second version they removed the "pod/missile" theory and added the flight 93 Cleveland garbage. They added a large section that is much stupider and much more easy to disprove than the pod/missile idea. So that's not encouraging.

But we know from interviews they've done that they're dropping the "Karl Schwarz/A-3 Attack plane struck the Pentagon" stuff. So that's an improvement. I would expect them to go more with accusations and innuendo against politicians than with details about planes crashing and buildings falling.
 
bob_kark said:
Excellent! Also, re-reading my post, I didn't mean to come of sounding as if you were unprepared. Just wanted to point out that people like Hovind fire off so many rounds, it can be a bit difficult to dodge and return fire. Best of luck!
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I definitely saw that technique with Rox. He tries to overwhelm you with trivia -- Why was William Rodriguez's most important testimony omitted from the 9/11 Commission Report? (complex-question fallacy, btw) What level were the WTC gas lines installed? Blah, blah, blah. He tries to expose gaps in your knowledge in an attempt to damage your credibility. He never bothers to explain how those bits of trivia support the central thesis, and he never considers for a moment that there might be an alternative but reasonable answer that contradicts the CT.
 
Gravy said:
The new version of the movie will be interesting to see. In the second version they removed the "pod/missile" theory and added the flight 93 Cleveland garbage. They added a large section that is much stupider and much more easy to disprove than the pod/missile idea. So that's not encouraging.

But we know from interviews they've done that they're dropping the "Karl Schwarz/A-3 Attack plane struck the Pentagon" stuff. So that's an improvement. I would expect them to go more with accusations and innuendo against politicians than with details about planes crashing and buildings falling.
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I agree -- I think there will be more focus on legitimate issues such as the government's reluctance to release the Pentagon security camera video, Able Danger (of course this will simultaneously detonate the theory that the hijackers are alive, etc.), the limited focus of the Congressional 9/11 inquiry (in order to protect both the Bush & Clinton administrations).

I think LC will gradually shift focus from a CT-oriented discussion to one that is more focused on the legitimate problems with the 9/11 investigation process. If they're smart, that's what they'll do, anyway.

They are already paving the way for that with all of this rhetoric about "hey! we're only asking questions...." and "it's the government's responsibility to provide the answers!"

Of course, I'm listening to the interview you linked to earlier, and now I'm not so sure. He sounds completely off his rocker. It's probably even odds that LC3 will be even crazier.
 
Gravy said:
I sent Dylan Avery an email today:
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Awesome, be sure its done at a neutral setting within a proper debate environment. Of course you would, but just so this freak of humanity does not think he can just talk over you.

A point by point rebuttal would be gold.
Very worthwhile.

Have media there! You could even call upon experts - but be sure its allowed. Imagine the experts lining up for you.

Im sure we could raise cash if they wanted fees!

Gravy, you are da mang.

Seriously - great work.
 
You know that great TV show "Connections" with James Burke? How about "Loose Connections" with Dylan Avery? Why be limited to 9/11? Syndication, baby! (As long as I get a producer credit.)
 
dubfan said:
Of course, I'm listening to the interview you linked to earlier, and now I'm not so sure. He sounds completely off his rocker. It's probably even odds that LC3 will be even crazier.
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Even if they do go the respectable route, will they actually do any of original interviews? Or will it be another 90-minute cut-and-paste job? In short, will it provide any new information at all?

By the way, I'll be in Vegas later this month and - assuming I can find a place taking bets on LC3 - I'll be placing my savings "even crazier".
 
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