Loose Change

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Thank god for your presence, xraye. I've already pointed out several things that you've posted above

All of which have been debunked abundantly, truth be told.

such as evidence of squibs in the collapsing of the towers, the wtc7 collapsing showed penthouse dropped first before everything else pointed out a characteristic of controlled demo,

Since you've been, unsurprinsingly but also dishonestly, unable to tell us what differences there should be between controlled and un-controlled demolitions, this statement is actually pretty hilarious.

but many have refused to believe it.

Sorry, I'm not a club-man, myself. I stand up for evidence and truth, not my own personal fancies.

My wife is a psycho therapist and a friend is working on obtaining phd in psychology, we've all had interesting discussions regarding sept 11 and the psychological impact that it had on everyone.

She's a psy, now ? Hopefully she won't get into multiple-personality disorders or blocked-out memories.
 
Sure, retort yourself to mocken and insulting because it's easier for you to deal rather than opening up to the painful idea that the bush admin may have had a hand in the attacks.

Geggy. You're an idiot. You've been posting here for, what, weeks ? Uttering useless pieces of "evidence", and have been shown, constantly, to be wrong. People are a little tired of you, I guess. And now that they stoop to insults you're offended ?

Get a brain.
 
How is debunking your hypothesis an insult to your intelligence, gravy?
Please explain what has been "debunked"

ETA: While you're at it, please provide the evidence that Bush had a hand in 9/11, and please answer this question: have you read my critique of "Loose Change," or not?
 
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How is debunking your hypothesis an insult to your intelligence, gravy?
How does citing Michael MeacherWP as a "foreign intelligence agent" debunk any hypothesis of gravy's? It debunks nothing. It has itself been debunked. Meacher is not a "foreign intelligence agent". He's a former lecturer in social administration and an MP.

How often are you going to declare victory without reference to the facts?
 
physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
Here's a research paper by Professor Steven E Jones, a physics professor at Brigham Young University, which brings to light some very interesting evidence regarding molten steel found at ground zero, more info on the demolition squibs, the phenomena of WTC 7, and what appears to be cordite dripping from one of the towers before it falls.

As has been pointed out, Jones work is not a paper, it is not peer reviewed. It has been rejected by the Structural Engineers at his own University. Even without that, Jones' work is ludicrous. He misuses the 2nd law of thermodynamics very badly, he declares a piece of what is obviously reenforced concrete to be a lump of cooled molten steel. Other silliness reigns in Jonestown.

Nobody has of yet been able to find another steel reinforced skyscraper that colllapsed because of a fire. As you can see here: portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/310898.shtml
there are many buildings in which fires have raged far longer and hotter than in the WTC towers and have stood firm.

All of the fires mentioned had major differences:

1) Firefighting efforts. The Meridian in Philly never had water ceasing to be pumped on it from the moment the Fire Department arrived. By comparison, the WTC towers were a struggle and the main fire was probably never reached.

2) Different structure design. The Meridian and Hilton were concrete with steel reenforcement not a purely steel structure. The Hilton was a combination of the two.

3) Actual failure. The Meridian building was abandoned for internal firefighting due to fears of internal collapse. Picture of the insides taken a few days later show the support beams sagging very badly. Despite the fact that the fire was about midway up the building, the building was ordered entirely destroyed due to damage. It was a loss. The Hilton's steel structure portion did collapse.

As a matter of fact the WTC itself had an inferno within it that lasted for 3 hours in the 1970's, and that was before they added fireproofing technology like sprinklers, elevator shaft dampers, and electrical system fireproofing.

The WTC already had some fireproofing, and the fire was nowhere near 'inferno' levels. The fire was electrical in nature and never reached the flammable office materials.

You may say that it was a combination of the impact of the jet and the fire that caused the collapse, the fire not melting the steel but weekening it enouph for it to not be able to support the building. However, even if that where true (which experts in "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" seem not to think), the steal beams below the fire would retain their structural integrety and would remain standing or would only bend, causing the building to fall sideways rather than straight down. The reason you need demolitions to bring down a building like this is because you have to cut the steel beams into segments in order for the building to fall straight down.

This is simply not true. Structural Engineers and Failure Analysts reject the Scholars claims and they are in the position to know. You, and the 'scholars' have no concept of the amount of energy the falling mass had.

The fires in the trade center where actually dying down before the collapse, as indicated by black smoke coming from the towers.

Black smoke is not an indication of a dying fire. It is what is being burned.

Here there's a recording of a fire fighter who reached the 78th floor of the second tower and seemed to think that the fire would be easy to contain.
wnyc.org/news/articles/7869

Too bad the main fires were about 3-5 floors above where he was talking about

http://911myths.com/html/no_wtc2_inferno_.html

Most of the evidence I've presented is contained within the Loose Change 2 video.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

Its very rude to blunder into a thread without having at least read part of it. Loose Change is a bad joke, even your beloved 'Scholars' aren't too fond of it. Gravy's work has throughly debunked the LC nonsense.
 
Shrinker, I'm surprised that you don't feel welcome to post in the other forum. What gives you that impression?
I'm another one who was suspended from the LC forum. When posting there, I was careful to be always sincere and polite. TheQuest suspended me for 60 days because they don't have time for answering questions from people who don't "get it." They apparently have something very important coming up in the next 60 days.

Xraye, I also want to extend a welcome to you. The members at this forum generally conduct themselves in a mature manner, but we do actually require evidence to accept extraordinary claims. I hope you have good evidence, and not just a bunch of innuendo.

You've brought up a lot of points in your first post, so I think it's going to be a little messy and hard to follow here with all the point-specific replies, but we can handle it if you can.
 
Hi geggy. For the fifth time: Assuming your version of 9/11 is correct, and the current administration are a bunch of heartless mass murderers, could you please tell me what we as Americans should do about this?

(This is sort of fun in a monotonous kind of way...)

I cant really answer that question for you. I'm not going to force you to do anything because thats for you to decide. I'm here on my own merit after coming to a conclusion that the Bush admin may have had a hand in the attacks. How much of an impact did sept 11 have on your personally and emotionally? How would you feel if you find out you were duped into believing that al-Qaeda were the responsible ones and the fact the bush admin toyed with your mental state at the time? If that doesn't stir up anger inside you, then I dont know what will...


In my vision, it would be great if everyone put aside their differences, whether youre a liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, independant, whatever and come together as one because its all about humanity fighting (peacefully) against the violence and treachery toward humanity that poses great danger to the global civilization.

Belz...i cant blame you for not being able to trust me because we dont know each other. Its easier for me to point out the anomalies with the people i've known most part of my life because they know who i am and they can trust me. They know I have the tendency to mock crazy conspiracy theories such as UFO, elvis, bigfoot etc, but thats most likely not the case with sept 11. I'm sorry you cant see the obviousness of the coverups surrounding sept 11 and being indifferent to finding out the real truth. Really its not my problem.
 
I'm here on my own merit after coming to a conclusion that the Bush admin may have had a hand in the attacks.
Please, can you just give us a simple list of the evidence you've evaluated to come to this conclusion. So far, you haven't provided any in your posts here. Yes, you don't like the way Bush reacted on that morning and you've tried to complain about the actions of NORAD and others, but those claims have been soundly refuted. So please, if you wouldn't mind.
 
It's not a question of trust, geggy, it's a question of proof. So far, you have provided nothing that doesn't have a more rational explanation. Where's your evidence of a controlled demolition that doesn't look like one? How would it work? Could it EVEN work? How can the difference be determined?
 
The WTC already had some fireproofing, and the fire was nowhere near 'inferno' levels. The fire was electrical in nature and never reached the flammable office materials.
Quick correction here. The 1975 fire in WTC 1 was a serious fire that did damage a good deal of nonstructural items on the 11th floor. However, it was fought the entire time, first by WTC personnel and then by the NYFD, who extinguished it. i was a 3-alarm fire, as opposed to a 12-alarm. geggy has repeatedly claimed that it spread from the 9th to the 19th floor. It did not. Beyond the 11th floor it was restricted to a concrete-enclosed cable shaft. And, of course, the building was not severely damaged by a 100-ton airliner flying at 400-500 mph.
 
Thanks for the correction, Gravy.

An interesting mental exercise as well is to consider what would have happened had this inferno started in a 1975 office, as opposed to a 2001 office.

Doesn't sound like much of a difference? Think about it. Most objects in the office today are particle board and plastic, paper abounds everywhere since everyone has a printer, a fax and copiers can duplicate a 100 page printout in mere seconds.

By comparison, most of the 1975 furniture is mostly (ugly) metal with litle particle boarding, there are no plastic computers and peripherals, typewriters would be mostly metal, nobody keeps a cardboard box in their office with reams of paper for their printer. Carpeting might not even be considered a necessity for office spaces at this time., etc. etc.

It doesn't seem like a big thing, but when you consider that it was mostly the flammable office materials that caused the heat weakening...
 
IBelz...i cant blame you for not being able to trust me because we dont know each other.
geggy, I don't speak for Belz, but I'll tell you why I don't trust you. In fact i tell you this every day: because you are wrong on virtually every point of "fact" that you bring up.

Remember a while back when you said to me "Trust me. This is no b.s." and I showed you that you were not to be trusted because your statement was total b.s.?

Every day I ask you why you are behaving this way, and why you refuse to confront your mistakes and learn from them. And every day you start anew with a fresh stupid statement.

Will you now please answer these questions?

1) What was debunked in Xraye's post I referred to?

2) Do you have any evidence at all that George Bush was complicit in planning or executing the terrorist attacks of 9/11, or is that just a belief of yours?

3) Why do you refuse to learn from your mistakes?
 
I cant really answer that question for you. I'm not going to force you to do anything because thats for you to decide. I'm here on my own merit after coming to a conclusion that the Bush admin may have had a hand in the attacks. How much of an impact did sept 11 have on your personally and emotionally? How would you feel if you find out you were duped into believing that al-Qaeda were the responsible ones and the fact the bush admin toyed with your mental state at the time? If that doesn't stir up anger inside you, then I dont know what will...


In my vision, it would be great if everyone put aside their differences, whether youre a liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, independant, whatever and come together as one because its all about humanity fighting (peacefully) against the violence and treachery toward humanity that poses great danger to the global civilization.

What a load of crap! I think your wife should read this post without knowing who wrote it, she'll immediately diagnose the author of suffering with accute apophenia, with hints of paranoid dillusion.

Can you answer my previous question geg? How a controlled demolition, that is made to look like a collapse from the top, is supposed to work exactly?

edited for spelling
 
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I still wonder, geggy, what was your old CT buddies' response when you informed them that the picture you tried to use to show molten steel from the fire was actually due to a cutting torch (shown on video)?
 
The fires in the trade center where actually dying down before the collapse, as indicated by black smoke coming from the towers.


Black smoke is not an indication of a dying fire. It is what is being burned.

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but dark smoke can also be an indication of the heat of the fire. At least in forest fires. When I take forest fire reports from pilots, one of the things I need to know is the colour of the smoke. In forest fires, dark smoke mostly indicates high heat.
 
In my vision, it would be great if everyone put aside their differences, whether youre a liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, independant, whatever and come together as one to agree with me, regardless of my lack of evidence.

Fixed your quote for you, geggy. Because the only way everyone is going to come together is if we all become equally deluded, right?
 
I still wonder, geggy, what was your old CT buddies' response when you informed them that the picture you tried to use to show molten steel from the fire was actually due to a cutting torch (shown on video)?
Happy 4,000th, pgwenthold! Now drop and give us 4,000.
 
How much of an impact did sept 11 have on your personally and emotionally?

It seems it has disturbed YOU to the point of denial. I think that's the problem with you Conspirationnists, you haven't learned to cope with 9/11 yet, you still live in the aftermath of the trauma. That's why you endlessly try to make out theories and see anomalies everywhere. My advice, DEAL WITH IT.

How would you feel if you find out you were duped into believing that al-Qaeda were the responsible ones and the fact the bush admin toyed with your mental state at the time?

Not your frontal lobe theory again! Please, you really freak me out when you say things like that!

In my vision,

That seems about right.

it would be great if everyone put aside their differences, whether youre a liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, independant, whatever and come together as one because its all about humanity fighting (peacefully) against the violence and treachery toward humanity that poses great danger to the global civilization.

What about Al Qaida? Do you completely deny their existence?

I'm sorry you cant see the obviousness of the coverups surrounding sept 11 and being indifferent to finding out the real truth. Really its not my problem.

I think IT IS your problem. YOU have to prove that there is a conspiracy. So far you haven't done that.
 
I cant really answer that question for you. I'm not going to force you to do anything because thats for you to decide. I'm here on my own merit after coming to a conclusion that the Bush admin may have had a hand in the attacks. How much of an impact did sept 11 have on your personally and emotionally? How would you feel if you find out you were duped into believing that al-Qaeda were the responsible ones and the fact the bush admin toyed with your mental state at the time? If that doesn't stir up anger inside you, then I dont know what will...

In my vision, it would be great if everyone put aside their differences, whether youre a liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, independant, whatever and come together as one because its all about humanity fighting (peacefully) against the violence and treachery toward humanity that poses great danger to the global civilization....

Hi geggy. Thank you for your reply to my question. I would say "answer," but of course you didn't supply one, as I suspect you're fully aware. Your response to the 9/11 atrocities, which you claim to believe are the work of Bush and his henchmen, apparently is to be "here on my own merit." But that isn't really doing anything, is it? Certainly you're not suggesting that if the American people come to realize that they're led by a mass murderer, the appropriate response is to come here or some other online forum and talk about it? That's sure not what I would do, if I believed what you do. And after all the talking is done, then what? Talk some more? Close our eyes and hope Bush goes away? What, exactly? You must have at least the vague outline of some plan or goal, otherwise everything you're doing is a massive, masturbatory waste of time.

And although I agree that you have a truly lovely vision about people of all stripes and persuasions coming "together as one," a hope that I too fervently share, that's a rather vague course of action, wouldn't you agree? How would you suggest we achieve this "coming together," especially under the current administration?

So let me phrase my question slightly more carefully: In your best-case scenario, what do you think would be the best thing we as Americans should do in response to our government murdering some 3,000 of our own innocent civilians? And please don't hide behind the "I already answered that" facade, because we both know you haven't.
 
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