Loose Change

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senorpogo said:
That's what I hate the most about the CTs.

They make assertions and claims. People thendisprove, discredit, and debunk them through hard work and a lot of research. Then, the CTs provide other evidence. Again, hard work and research disproves that. The cycle repeats until the CTs fall back to the "we're just asking questions" position.

After people go through all the hard work to show that their claims are bogus, CTs then claim that it was never about the claims themselves. It doesn't matter that all those claims were completely wrong. Nope, what was important was that they were "questioning things".

It is *#@!ing infuriating. It's intellectually dishonest. It's completely cowardly.
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I hear you. What I personnaly find most aggravating, is that they don't even want to back up the very logic of their claims. Regardless of evidence and facts (wich they will always say can be fabricated, that even the most reliable and internationally recognised investigating agencies have been cohersed), they can't seem to intellectualise their theories into a rational cohesiveness. They defy logic itself.
 
TjW said:
Well, there IS something called "ground effect", which basically reduces the drag on an airplane within a wingspan or so of the ground. But it doesn't push it back up into the air, it just reduces the drag. It doesn't affect the controllability of the airplane at all.

Ground effect can make it difficult to land at a particular horizontal spot on a runway. It doesn't affect at all the ability to make the wheels start rolling on the ground at that point. You'll just be going too fast.

Somewhere way back up the thread, I'm sure I pointed out that all you have to do to collide with something is maintain the same relative bearing with it until the collision occurs. Ground effect doesn't affect that.
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Thanks, that clears things up.

I remember shortly after 9/11 when they were still trying to determine if the hijackers were actually flying the plane or if they were coercing the pilots to fly into buildings. One pilot came out to say that it required far to much expertise to crash into a building for mere students to accomplish it. This was the only pilot that thought so, however, so this theory died pretty quickly.

(I never believed it was anyone but the hijackers who had done the deed. From what I know about pilots, they are not cut from the sort of cloth that would allow them to meekly do as their told, killing themselves and thousands of other people. They would sooner dive straight into the ground.)
 
dubfan said:
Thanks. I'm surprised I've lasted this long. I think it's mostly kids over there, and I think they mean well. It's hard to get too angry at them. I'm disappointed in them that they don't think more clearly, and I'm starting to get REALLY angry at the government, because it's their own actions that have created the fertile soil for this crap to grow,
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It's true that this particular administration has been a pro at making mistakes and enemies, the global discontent of their policies is fueling conspiracism like it never was before, but the lure of conspiracism has always been around, and always will be.

dubfan said:
but the people I'm most pissed off about are Dylan Avery & Co. These guys are frauds, pure and simple, and they have no idea how destructive they are.
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Notice how Ossama Bin Laden is now quoting Michael Moore's films to legitimise his very own actions:

geggy said:
"But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah." -Osama turned into comedian.
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If you guys are looking for sponsors for your little movie, I'm sure the bush admin will be more than willing to help with the funding...

DavidJames said:
Really, then you will have no problem telling me specifically what in the report was bs, please include details regarding why along with the supporting analysis.
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Reason why it was easier for me to criticize the sept 11 commission report was because I started reading articles relating to sept 11 in 2002. I noticed that in the report the time of FAA notifying NORAD of the hijacked planes had been changed. For example, it was officially reported by FEMA that the FAA first contacted NORAD that AA175 had been hijacked at 8:43. Fighter jets were deployed in Otis air force base at 8:46 but couldn't get to NYC in time. But in the commission report, it said that FAA first contacted NORAD at 9:03, around the same time AA175 crashed into the south tower. Really odd.

I'm not sure if this was addressed by PM or the commission report, but it was reported by either one that the only time NORAD ever intercepted a diverted plane in the decade prior to sept 11 was in 1999 when golfer Payne Stewert's jet crashed. But in NORAD's official report, it was confirmed that they had intercepted diverted planes 67 times from sept 2000 to june 2001.
 
geggy said:
If you guys are looking for sponsors for your little movie, I'm sure the bush admin will be more than willing to help with the funding...



Reason why it was easier for me to criticize the sept 11 commission report was because I started reading articles relating to sept 11 in 2002. I noticed that in the report the time of FAA notifying NORAD of the hijacked planes had been changed. For example, it was officially reported by FEMA that the FAA first contacted NORAD that AA175 had been hijacked at 8:43. Fighter jets were deployed in Otis air force base at 8:46 but couldn't get to NYC in time. But in the commission report, it said that FAA first contacted NORAD at 9:03, around the same time AA175 crashed into the south tower. Really odd.

I'm not sure if this was addressed by PM or the commission report, but it was reported by either one that the only time NORAD ever intercepted a diverted plane in the decade prior to sept 11 was in 1999 when golfer Payne Stewert's jet crashed. But in NORAD's official report, it was confirmed that they had intercepted diverted planes 67 times from sept 2000 to june 2001.
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sources?
 
I'm not sure if this was addressed by PM or the commission report, but it was reported by either one that the only time NORAD ever intercepted a diverted plane in the decade prior to sept 11 was in 1999 when golfer Payne Stewert's jet crashed. But in NORAD's official report, it was confirmed that they had intercepted diverted planes 67 times from sept 2000 to june 2001.
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the PM article claimed "In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999."

a "debunk" of the PM article (http(no www)911reviewDOTcom/pm/markup/indexDOThtml) makes the following claim:
PM's claim that only one civilian plane was intercepted over North America in decade before 9/11 is preposterous and illustrates how sloppy the article is with facts. While the military doesn't report intercepts, the AP reported the following statement from one of PM's own experts, Maj. Douglas Martin: "From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said."
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i don't know exactly what the differences between "intercept" and "scramble" are, but i have a funny feeling that they may be of interest here ;)
 
geggy said:
If you guys are looking for sponsors for your little movie, I'm sure the bush admin will be more than willing to help with the funding...



Reason why it was easier for me to criticize the sept 11 commission report was because I started reading articles relating to sept 11 in 2002. I noticed that in the report the time of FAA notifying NORAD of the hijacked planes had been changed. For example, it was officially reported by FEMA that the FAA first contacted NORAD that AA175 had been hijacked at 8:43. Fighter jets were deployed in Otis air force base at 8:46 but couldn't get to NYC in time. But in the commission report, it said that FAA first contacted NORAD at 9:03, around the same time AA175 crashed into the south tower. Really odd.

I'm not sure if this was addressed by PM or the commission report, but it was reported by either one that the only time NORAD ever intercepted a diverted plane in the decade prior to sept 11 was in 1999 when golfer Payne Stewert's jet crashed. But in NORAD's official report, it was confirmed that they had intercepted diverted planes 67 times from sept 2000 to june 2001.
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Geggy, what does any of this matter if the buildings were already rigged for controlled demolition?
 
UPDATE!!

I got a response from steve the guy who saw the plane hit the pentagon and took the pictures afterwards. heres his reply, apparently the CTers have gotten to him already.

"Its too late about the contact info. Its already readily available even off my site so Ive been dealing with the harrassment for years now.

I am kind of tired of recounting the event over and over again but I will reitirate that it was indeed an American Airlines 757 that hit the pentagon and not a missle."

Steve
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Ok now geggy, heres an EYEWITNESS who saw the plane hit the pentagon. he didnt go into detail, but i dont blame him since he's had constant harrassment from nutcases.
 
geggy said:
I'm not sure if this was addressed by PM or the commission report, but it was reported by either one that the only time NORAD ever intercepted a diverted plane in the decade prior to sept 11 was in 1999 when golfer Payne Stewert's jet crashed. But in NORAD's official report, it was confirmed that they had intercepted diverted planes 67 times from sept 2000 to june 2001.
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None of the intercepts were over the Continental US. They were ADIZ intercepts over the Oceans. That makes it a completely different game.
 
geggy said:
But in the commission report, it said that FAA first contacted NORAD at 9:03, around the same time AA175 crashed into the south tower. Really odd.
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Another day, another howlingly ignorant statement from geggy.

From the 9/11 Commission Report, Chapter 1
Military Notification and Response.

Boston Center did not follow the protocol in seeking military assistance through the prescribed chain of command. In addition to notifications within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility. The center also tried to contact a former alert site in Atlantic City, unaware it had been phased out.

At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military-at any level-that American 11 had been hijacked.

FAA: Hi. Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.

NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?

FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

NEADS ordered to battle stations the two F-15 alert aircraft at Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts, 153 miles away from New York City. The air defense of America began with this call.

At NEADS, the report of the hijacking was relayed immediately to Battle Commander Colonel Robert Marr. After ordering the Otis fighters to battle stations, Colonel Marr phoned Major General Larry Arnold, commanding general of the First Air Force and NORAD's Continental Region. Marr sought authorization to scramble the Otis fighters. General Arnold later recalled instructing Marr to "go ahead and scramble them, and we'll get authorities later." General Arnold then called NORAD headquarters to report.

F-15 fighters were scrambled at 8:46 from Otis Air Force Base. But NEADS did not know where to send the alert fighter aircraft, and the officer directing the fighters pressed for more information: "I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination." Because the hijackers had turned off the plane's transponder, NEADS personnel spent the next minutes searching their radar scopes for the primary radar return. American 11 struck the North Tower at 8:46. Shortly after 8:50, while NEADS personnel were still trying to locate the flight, word reached them that a plane had hit the World Trade Center.

Radar data show the Otis fighters were airborne at 8:53. Lacking a target, they were vectored toward military-controlled airspace off the Long Island coast. To avoid New York area air traffic and uncertain about what to do, the fighters were brought down to military airspace to "hold as needed. "From 9:09 to 9:13, the Otis fighters stayed in this holding pattern.

In summary, NEADS received notice of the hijacking nine minutes before it struck the North Tower. That nine minutes' notice before impact was the most the military would receive of any of the four hijackings.
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Still refusing to do your homework, eh, geggy? Please respond to these questions, which I posed yesterday, and will continue posing until you go away or show signs of getting a clue:

Gravy said:
How do you feel about your approach to all this? Is it working out? Are you comfortable with how it's going? Seeing good progress, are you?
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edited for punctuation
 
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I'm going through the new Loose Change guide (AMAZING work by the way) and came to maybe my favorite part of LC. By favorite, I mean the silliest, wackiest, wonkiest, and most slaptastic.

While talking about Ground Zero...

"Guess who was allowed into the site? Controlled Demolition, who was also responsible for cleaning up after the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995.

It gets better than that!

On July 15th, 2001. Controlled Demolition destroyed two 400 ft tall fuel reserve tanks from the World War II era.

The demolition was conducted for no apparent reason, and drew numerous complaints from the neighborhood.

The site remains vacant to this day and a reason for the demolition has never been disclosed."

What on God's green earth does this have to do with anything?!?!?
 
senorpogo said:
I'm going through the new Loose Change guide (AMAZING work by the way) and came to maybe my favorite part of LC. By favorite, I mean the silliest, wackiest, wonkiest, and most slaptastic.

While talking about Ground Zero...

"Guess who was allowed into the site? Controlled Demolition, who was also responsible for cleaning up after the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995.

It gets better than that!

On July 15th, 2001. Controlled Demolition destroyed two 400 ft tall fuel reserve tanks from the World War II era.

The demolition was conducted for no apparent reason, and drew numerous complaints from the neighborhood.

The site remains vacant to this day and a reason for the demolition has never been disclosed."

What on God's green earth does this have to do with anything?!?!?
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That's one of my favorite parts also. The CTists claim that CDI was "practicing" for the WTC demolition! And they totally ignore that the demolition of the tanks was contracted for by Keyspan Energy, and public hearings were held about them! How much more can they get wrong in a few sentences?
 
senorpogo said:
On July 15th, 2001. Controlled Demolition destroyed two 400 ft tall fuel reserve tanks from the World War II era.

The demolition was conducted for no apparent reason, and drew numerous complaints from the neighborhood.

The site remains vacant to this day and a reason for the demolition has never been disclosed."

What on God's green earth does this have to do with anything?!?!?
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Exactly - first of all these were natural gas storage tanks, built in the 1920's, 20 years prior to WW 2 era, and had been empty, vacant, no longer used, and awaiting razing for YEARS. (we pipe our gas in now, no storage.) It was well publicized - in the papers, on the radio etc. - How do I know? I went to see it!

When I saw LC I couldn't help laughing about that, and its irrelevance to the whole thing as something - Boogie boogie significant!

Oh wait I see the significance now - there were 2 of them! Side by side! Yup that's it! My eyes are opened! 2 of em!
 
60hzxtl said:
Oh wait I see the significance now - there were 2 of them! Side by side! Yup that's it! My eyes are opened! 2 of em!
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Oh, crap! I totally missed that! Now I have to go back and re-do my whole critique.
 
Gravy said:
That's one of my favorite parts also. The CTists claim that CDI was "practicing" for the WTC demolition! And they totally ignore that the demolition of the tanks was contracted for by Keyspan Energy, and public hearings were held about them! How much more can they get wrong in a few sentences?
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Ha, ha! I guess they figured that the tanks and the WTC were just alike in that they were large objects and there were two of them.
 
Thank you as well and welcome Anthony.

I would like to point out that it is for people like Anthony that I am argueing with the CT nutters.
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WHY, THANK YOU!!

i've been arguing against them for awhile now, and it's EXASPERATING. you should see the pile of "documentaries" and "essays" that i've been pointed too. it never ends. it's like arguing with "creation scientists"... :s

[edit]
IN FACT, here's a list that was given to be by -ONE- poster:

VIDEOS:
911 road to tyrany
911 the grand illusion
illuminazi 911
911 painful deceptions
marshall law
american dictators
loose change
in plane site
masters of terror
oil and the war on terror/mike ruppert
911 the biggest lie ever sold

BOOKS:
911 the big lie
pentagate
911 the grand illusion
911 decent into tyrany
911 revealed

it's amazing how many people are perpetuating all this crap.
[/edit]
 
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