Rumsfeld proven a liar. Twice.

(Cough)

If you could be honest for a moment.

Rummy claims Saddam is linked to Al Qaeda.

Correct?

Nobody is claiming anything to the contrary...

So...

Perhaps you can quote the part of that transcript where Rummy claims Saddam had something to do with 9/11

Doesn't seem to be there.

So, for Clause

Refer to your opening post.

Link to a transcript of rummy making that claim.

You can't strawman your way out of that.

I'll help

(Woman) You said about a year ago, that there was bullet-proof evidence, that Saddam Hu...of links between Saddam Hussein and the September 11th attacks. When will the American public see that sort of evidence?

Donald Rumsfeld: I did not say that. And whoever said I said it, is wrong.
The National Press Club, September 10, 2003


Clause: According to the New York Times, September he did say it, on September 27th, 2002. A month later, he admitted saying it.

Oops.


Oops indeed, CFL. Please link to Donald admitting he said that.
 
Nobody is claiming anything to the contrary...

Thank you.

Perhaps you can quote the part of that transcript where Rummy claims Saddam had something to do with 9/11

Perhaps you can quote the part of my OP where this is claimed? The word used is "links":

(Woman) You said about a year ago, that there was bullet-proof evidence, that Saddam Hu...of links between Saddam Hussein and the September 11th attacks. When will the American public see that sort of evidence?

Donald Rumsfeld: I did not say that. And whoever said I said it, is wrong.
The National Press Club, September 10, 2003

What, exactly, is your problem?
 
From the interview of Sept. 10, 2003.
JIM LEHRER: Tomorrow will be the second anniversary of 9/11. An airplane went into the Pentagon, of course, into... two planes went into New York and another one in Pennsylvania. But a plane went into your building not far from where you and I are sitting. You were in the building at the time. Do you still think about that?
DONALD RUMSFELD: Of course. I mean we lost hundreds of people and thousands nationwide.
JIM LEHRER: I mean, do you think about those moments?
DONALD RUMSFELD: Sure, you bet. And I also think about the statement that was made to me shortly thereafter when I was in the Gulf and a senior leader there said to me, Maybe that was a blessing in disguise. Maybe that will wake up the world to the fact that there are people out teaching people to kill innocent men, women and children. They're being taught that as young kids, and if the world doesn't wake up, there will be so many of those people and they will have weapons so powerful that maybe there be will a 9/11 -- a September 11 -- not where 3,000 are killed but 30,000 or 300,000. And that would be a terrible thing, he said. We've got... this has to be a wake-up call for the world.
It would take a truly determined act of denial to suggest that Rumsfeld was not trying to tie those who possessed the purported weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to the 9/11 attacks. You would have to say something like "Oh, he just meant people like that, not the same people." Will those who are saying Rumsfeld didn't lie choose this tactic? Will they ignore the glaringly obvious attempt to tie the attacks to Iraq (where those "weapons so powerful" were said to be) and continue to suggest that the fact that more than half the country still thinks Iraq was involve in 911 has nothing to do with statements made by Rumsfeld and others of the Bush administration? Or will they fall back on "Rumsfeld didn't say it, that unnamed senior leader said it. He just repeated what he said."

Not if they want to be taken seriously.
 
Ah, here's the "bulletproof" comment.

Secretary Powell said that there were confirmed "linkages" between Al Qaeda and Iraq, but that "perhaps part of the confusion is that we‘re learning more over time as we get access to more and more" Al Qaeda prisoners and Iraqi defectors.
Mr. Rumsfeld explained today that he had met with his deputy, Paul D. Wolfowitz, and other top aides about a week ago, to figure out a way to declassify some of the information about Iraq-Al Qaeda links. He said intelligence analysts came back with "five or six sentences" that were "bulletproof" and could be cited in briefings with allies, lawmakers and the public.

In fairness, he went on to say:
"But they‘re not photographs," Mr. Rumsfeld said today. "They‘re not beyond a reasonable doubt. They, in some cases, are assessments from limited number of sources."

Which leads one to wonder what "bulletproof" means to Rumsfeld. It sounds like he is just using buzzwords to stir people up.
 
With respect to the various parties involved in the dispute with CFL it all appears a little silly.

From, very early on in this thread both sides must have understood what the other side was saying. And an intellectually honest approach would have been to express an understanding of what the other side's view was and to acknowledge that there is some logic behind it.

CFL says that Rumsfeld claimed that Hussein was involved with 9-11 because Hussein was involved with Al-queda and Al-queda was involved with 9-11. This is not illogical. For instance, it would be factually correct to say that the prior government of Afghanistan was involved with the 9-11 attacks because they were involved with Al-queda. That is a reasonable thing to say even if they were not directly involved with the details of 9-11 planning. But it would also be reasonable to say that the prior government of Afghanistan was not involved with the 9-11 attacks because their level of involvement fell below what some people might reasonably construe "involved" to mean. Because of the ambiguities of language the issue can not be resolved completely no matter how many back and forth posts are made with respect to it.

On a slightly differeent issue, the claim that Hussein was involved with Al-queda was based on very slim evidence that has subsequently been discredited. The Al-queda connection is just one more example of the administration failing to acknowledge that their claims were based on evidence that was highly disputed at the time of the claim.

I, personally, have no doubt that the administration had substantial reason to doubt most of their claims surrounding the justification for war inclduing the nuclear claims, the chemical weapons claims and the Al-queda connection claims. Given that, it is reasonable to question exactly what were the driving forces behind the decision to go to war for this administration. I don't know what it was, but I think the Israel tie in seems to be part of the picture and I don't automatically reject somebody as a nutjob that puts that forth as a possibility.
 
Which leads one to wonder what "bulletproof" means to Rumsfeld. It sounds like he is just using buzzwords to stir people up.

When you use those words to lead nations into battle, it is very serious.
 
It's weasel words. Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney etc. were claiming links between Hussein & Al-Qaeda, while immediately mentioning 9/11 as many times as possible. If you think the intention wasn't to give the impression, without directly stating it, that Saddam was linked to 9/11, that is somewhat naive.

Maybe literally, it was not a lie, but it was deliberately misleading. Other statements, such as the ones about WMDs, have been proven to be lies.
 
(Woman) You said about a year ago, that there was bullet-proof evidence, that Saddam Hu...of links between Saddam Hussein and the September 11th attacks. When will the American public see that sort of evidence?

Donald Rumsfeld: I did not say that. And whoever said I said it, is wrong.
The National Press Club, September 10, 2003


Clause: According to the New York Times, September he did say it, on September 27th, 2002. A month later, he admitted saying it.

Oops.


Oops indeed, CFL. Please link to Donald admitting he said that.
 
Did you fall for it?
Relevance?

I had heard previous reports of Husseins dislike of Bin Laden. I had also heard stories of Bush wanting to go to war with Iraq before 9/11. I had no idea that the WMD line was a lie. I was suspicious of the linking of Iraq to Al-Qaeda, and by association, 9/11.
OK? How is it relevant to whether or not Rummy lied?
 
Bush : "You can't distinguish between Al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." *


Cheney : Iraq is "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11." *


Bush : "We're rolling back the terrorist threat, not on the fringes of its influence but at the heart of its power." *


QUESTION: When I was in Iraq, some of the soldiers said they believed they were fighting because of the Sept. 11 attacks and because they thought Saddam Hussein had ties to al Qaeda. You've repeatedly cited such links. . . . I wanted to ask you what you'd say to those soldiers, and were those soldiers misled at all?

Cheney : [waffles]

QUESTION: So you stand by the statements?

Cheney : Absolutely. Absolutely. *


American soldier serving in Iraq : "There's a picture of the World Trade Center hanging up by my bed and I keep one in my Kevlar. Every time I feel sorry for these people I look at that. I think, 'They hit us at home and, now, it's our turn.' I don't want to say payback but, you know, it's pretty much payback." *


Bush (in the "mission accomplished" speech) : "We have not forgotten the victims of September the eleventh-the last phone calls, the cold murder of children, the searches in the rubble. With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got." *


USA Today : "Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, says a poll out almost two years after the terrorists' strike against this country. Sixty-nine percent in a Washington Post poll published Saturday said they believe it is likely the Iraqi leader was personally involved in the attacks carried out by al-Qaeda." *


Powell in February 2001 : "[Saddam Hussein] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." *


Bush : "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." *


Cheney : "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." *


Cheney : ""But we do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon." *


Cheney : "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." *


Rumsfeld, (two months after the previous quote) : "I don't believe anyone that I know in the administration ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons." *


Downing Street Memo : "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." *


Bush "The best way for peace is for Mr. Saddam Hussein to disarm. It's up to him to make his decision." *


Bush : "Even though [sic] what I know today about the stockpiles of weapons, I still would have called upon the world to deal with Saddam Hussein." *


Rumsfeld : "We know where they [the weapons] are." *


Bush : "But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." *


Cheney : "The streets in Basra and Baghdad are sure to erupt in joy in the same way the throngs in Kabul greeted the Americans. Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of Jihad. Moderates throughout the region would take heart." *


Downing Street Memo : "There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action." *


Bush : "In a free Iraq, there will be no more torture chambers and rape rooms." *


Bush : "When Iraqi civilians looked into the faces of our service men and women, they saw strength and kindness and good will." *


Bush on campaign, 2000 : "I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not." *


Fleischer : "During the campaign, the president did not express, as you put it, disdain for nation-building." *


Rumsfeld : "The infrastructure of that country was not terribly damaged by the war at all." *


Rumsfeld : "You know, I just came in from Baghdad, and there are now over 100 newspapers in the free press in Iraq in a free Iraq, where people are able to say whatever they wish." *


NYT : "The scene for the uprising was set a week ago, when the American authorities closed a popular Baghdad newspaper, Al Hawza, that was the mouthpiece for Mr. Sadr, because of what they called inaccurate reporting in the paper that incited hatred for the Americans." *


Rumsfeld : "It has has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil." *


Wolfowitz : "This is not a war about oil." *


Wolfowitz : "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil." *


Rumsfeld ""Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that." *


Bush : "The credibility of the United States is based upon our strong desire to make the world more peaceful, and the world is now more peaceful." *


Bush : "I know what I'm doing when it comes to winning this war." *


Rumsfeld : "Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?" *


missionaccomplished6tu.jpg
 
Bush : "You can't distinguish between Al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." *


Cheney : Iraq is "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11." *


Bush : "We're rolling back the terrorist threat, not on the fringes of its influence but at the heart of its power." *


QUESTION: When I was in Iraq, some of the soldiers said they believed they were fighting because of the Sept. 11 attacks and because they thought Saddam Hussein had ties to al Qaeda. You've repeatedly cited such links. . . . I wanted to ask you what you'd say to those soldiers, and were those soldiers misled at all?

Cheney : [waffles]

QUESTION: So you stand by the statements?

Cheney : Absolutely. Absolutely. *


American soldier serving in Iraq : "There's a picture of the World Trade Center hanging up by my bed and I keep one in my Kevlar. Every time I feel sorry for these people I look at that. I think, 'They hit us at home and, now, it's our turn.' I don't want to say payback but, you know, it's pretty much payback." *


Bush (in the "mission accomplished" speech) : "We have not forgotten the victims of September the eleventh-the last phone calls, the cold murder of children, the searches in the rubble. With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got." *


USA Today : "Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, says a poll out almost two years after the terrorists' strike against this country. Sixty-nine percent in a Washington Post poll published Saturday said they believe it is likely the Iraqi leader was personally involved in the attacks carried out by al-Qaeda." *


Powell in February 2001 : "[Saddam Hussein] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." *


Bush : "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." *


Cheney : "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." *


Cheney : ""But we do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon." *


Cheney : "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." *


Rumsfeld, (two months after the previous quote) : "I don't believe anyone that I know in the administration ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons." *


Downing Street Memo : "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." *


Bush "The best way for peace is for Mr. Saddam Hussein to disarm. It's up to him to make his decision." *


Bush : "Even though [sic] what I know today about the stockpiles of weapons, I still would have called upon the world to deal with Saddam Hussein." *


Rumsfeld : "We know where they [the weapons] are." *


Bush : "But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." *


Cheney : "The streets in Basra and Baghdad are sure to erupt in joy in the same way the throngs in Kabul greeted the Americans. Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of Jihad. Moderates throughout the region would take heart." *


Downing Street Memo : "There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action." *


Bush : "In a free Iraq, there will be no more torture chambers and rape rooms." *


Bush : "When Iraqi civilians looked into the faces of our service men and women, they saw strength and kindness and good will." *


Bush on campaign, 2000 : "I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not." *


Fleischer : "During the campaign, the president did not express, as you put it, disdain for nation-building." *


Rumsfeld : "The infrastructure of that country was not terribly damaged by the war at all." *


Rumsfeld : "You know, I just came in from Baghdad, and there are now over 100 newspapers in the free press in Iraq in a free Iraq, where people are able to say whatever they wish." *


NYT : "The scene for the uprising was set a week ago, when the American authorities closed a popular Baghdad newspaper, Al Hawza, that was the mouthpiece for Mr. Sadr, because of what they called inaccurate reporting in the paper that incited hatred for the Americans." *


Rumsfeld : "It has has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil." *


Wolfowitz : "This is not a war about oil." *


Wolfowitz : "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil." *


Rumsfeld ""Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that." *


Bush : "The credibility of the United States is based upon our strong desire to make the world more peaceful, and the world is now more peaceful." *


Bush : "I know what I'm doing when it comes to winning this war." *


Rumsfeld : "Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?" *


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8775/missionaccomplished6tu.jpg
And which one of those links has anything to do w/ the OP of this thread?
 
Oops indeed, CFL. Please link to Donald admitting he said that.

New York Times. And a month later. You are perfectly aware of that.

What is your problem? Why do you willingly ignore evidence?

Remember, we are talking "links" and not - as you dishonestly twisted it to - "something to do with".

You can't even show where I make that claim. All we get is repetitions of your unfounded claim.

Show me. Put up or shut up.
 
Relevance?

I had heard previous reports of Husseins dislike of Bin Laden. I had also heard stories of Bush wanting to go to war with Iraq before 9/11. I had no idea that the WMD line was a lie. I was suspicious of the linking of Iraq to Al-Qaeda, and by association, 9/11.
OK? How is it relevant to whether or not Rummy lied?

The relevance is that if you didn't fall for it and I didn't fall for it and that the adminstration even took pains to say they had no evidence of such a saddam/911 link, then you tell me the relevance.

You brought it up, not me. You state they never said it. Tell CFL that. You state they implied it. Did you infer that which they did not imply? you state you did not. I state the same. Gee, where does that leave us?
 
New York Times. And a month later. You are perfectly aware of that.

What is your problem? Why do you willingly ignore evidence?

Remember, we are talking "links" and not - as you dishonestly twisted it to - "something to do with".

You can't even show where I make that claim. All we get is repetitions of your unfounded claim.

Show me. Put up or shut up.

According to the New York Times, September he did say it, on September 27th, 2002. A month later, he admitted saying it.
Prove it.

Otherwise, I will shut up when you put up. Your assertion. Prove it.
 
Last edited:
The relevance is that if you didn't fall for it and I didn't fall for it and that the adminstration even took pains to say they had no evidence of such a saddam/911 link, then you tell me the relevance.

You brought it up, not me. You state they never said it. Tell CFL that. You state they implied it. Did you infer that which they did not imply? you state you did not. I state the same. Gee, where does that leave us?
With you as a RummyBot.
 
With you as a RummyBot.

(Woman) You said about a year ago, that there was bullet-proof evidence, that Saddam Hu...of links between Saddam Hussein and the September 11th attacks. When will the American public see that sort of evidence?

Donald Rumsfeld: I did not say that. And whoever said I said it, is wrong.
The National Press Club, September 10, 2003

Clause: According to the New York Times, September he did say it, on September 27th, 2002. A month later, he admitted saying it.

Oops.

Oops indeed, CFL. Please link to Donald admitting he said that.
 

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