Does the war in Iraq cause more terrorism?

[casebro]

" Does the war in Iraq cause more terrorism?"

Answer in two parts:

1) Not in America.

2) But now those idiot extremists are bombing everybody else, including Islamic countries: England, Holland, France, Spain, Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt...

Someday soon the rest of the world will get serious about fighting terrorism, and put a stop to it. Iran, Syria, and Palestine need as little attention, and Palestine just got hit in the pocketbook...

Do you think there will be another Spain, anymore?

 

[Mike B.]

On the contrary. The peoples of the Middle East can remember, and resent, an event in history for hundreds and hundreds of years.

In fact, my own solution to all the problems of the Middle East is to develop a powerful amnesigen and administer it to all parties.

Initial results are promising, but the drug has side effects. Lab trials show that when Histogon (TM) is administered to Jews, they forget Jerusalem as required, but this is accompanied by loss of cunning in the right hand and cleaving of the tongue to the palate.

Research continues. When the formula is perfected, we'll introduce it to the water supply. During the ensuing chaos, my shock troops of winged monkeys will infiltrate the libraries and destroy all the history books.

As George Santayana so very nearly said : Those who can remember history are doomed to repeat it.

It is not so much as that people remember history is that it is selectively remembered. Not that the Middle East is the only place this happens, but it seems peculiarly acute there.

Remember Islam is ALWAYS and has ALWAYS BEEN the victim. No aggressive actions from those that profess the religion has ever occurred.

I suppose it wasn't until the 1960s (not that long ago) before much of the US could be geniunely self-critical about its history, but I really think that a little of that would do wonders in the Middle East.

 

[Mycroft]

It is not so much as that people remember history is that it is selectively remembered. Not that the Middle East is the only place this happens, but it seems peculiarly acute there.

Remember Islam is ALWAYS and has ALWAYS BEEN the victim. No aggressive actions from those that profess the religion has ever occurred.

I suppose it wasn't until the 1960s (not that long ago) before much of the US could be geniunely self-critical about its history, but I really think that a little of that would do wonders in the Middle East.

Excellent.

 

[CapelDodger]

Do you think their memories shape the opinions of the masses?

What the f*** do you think culture is if it's not transmitted memories?

 

[CapelDodger]

I did not understand that post Capel. I read it five times. The last sentence confused me.

That the Middle East is a very civilised part of the world? It's one of the places where civilisation started. That means organised states with rulers, and that means spin. Stuff like "he's King because he's a God". "The Ottoman Empire's only motivation is the defense of Islam." "The US overthrew a secular, brutally anti-Islamist Ba'ath regime to further the Long War on Islamism. Oh, and bring democracy to an oppressed people, did I mention that?"

The locals don't buy it. They're a cynical bunch, for good reason. By and large they don't buy the "it's about Islam" argument from either side. They think it's about oil and strategic positioning, just as it was when Sykes and Picot were negotiating the Eastern Ottoman Empire's future, and when the details were settled in Paris.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I would agree with Mycroft that this is well said --- because it is almost what I was saying. However ...

It is not so much as that people remember history is that it is selectively remembered.

Yes. To take a particular example, I was thinking of the Shia remembering how the Sunni killed their Imams.

I mean, it was a long time ago.

Not that the Middle East is the only place this happens, but it seems peculiarly acute there.

Northern Ireland. Give 'em Histogon.

Remember Islam is ALWAYS and has ALWAYS BEEN the victim. No aggressive actions from those that profess the religion has ever occurred.

This is not true.

They won for so long. And gloried in it. And we won the second siege of Vienna 'cos of the weather.

And also you are confusing Islam as a political entity with the Arabs. Don't.

There is so much history behind all this. You haven't read much of it, have you?

I suppose it wasn't until the 1960s (not that long ago) before much of the US could be geniunely self-critical about its history, but I really think that a little of that would do wonders in the Middle East.

Well, I remember a real change I saw. There was an earthquake in Turkey a few years back, and the Greeks laid aside their old hatred and gave all the help they could. And the Turks and the Greeks put aside their old quarrel, and made speeches about how the old feud was over now ... which dated back to the days of the Ottoman Empire, the sophistries of Giz to the contrary.

It seems to be working out OK.

If humans could leave aside paranoid lunacy and believe that other humans are humans, we might achieve great things.

 

[CapelDodger]

It is not so much as that people remember history is that it is selectively remembered. Not that the Middle East is the only place this happens, but it seems peculiarly acute there.

Perhaps it seems that way because you're fixated on the place. Look at Europe. Look at Japan. Look at the US.

Remember Islam is ALWAYS and has ALWAYS BEEN the victim. No aggressive actions from those that profess the religion has ever occurred.

One of those things you can't catch anybody saying so you have to say it yourself. If you have some litany of aggressive Muslim offenses (and given the prominence of jihad in the religion it's necessarily a long one) before the current situation in Iraq can be raised, please consider it read.

The local reaction to the US invasion, conquest and occupation of Iraq is that it's no different from the British Empire's invasion, conquest and occupation in 1941. That was in response to a republican coup against the Hashemite monarchy installed by the British under the Mandate.

When the Great War Allies tried to incite the natives of the Eastern Ottoman Empire they had a less than lukewarm response. The locals were well aware of European imperialism's career over the previous century. They'd be replacing an Ottoman rule, which they understood and could work around, for an unknown European imperial rule.

Those that did respond, Lawrence's converts generally, were promised that this would not happen. They were lied to. As was Lawrence.

I suppose it wasn't until the 1960s (not that long ago) before much of the US could be geniunely self-critical about its history, but I really think that a little of that would do wonders in the Middle East.

What is it that the people of Iraq should be concentrating, self-critically, on in your view? The failure of the mosque-based opposition to topple Saddam themselves? The weakness of the Communist opposition because of their atheism? What is it that you, not living in a very active war-zone with a wrecked economy and little effective policing, think they should be shriving themselves of?

 

[Dr Adequate]

The local reaction to the US invasion, conquest and occupation of Iraq is that it's no different from the British Empire's invasion, conquest and occupation in 1941. That was in response to a republican coup against the Hashemite monarchy installed by the British under the Mandate.

When the Great War Allies tried to incite the natives of the Eastern Ottoman Empire they had a less than lukewarm response. The locals were well aware of European imperialism's career over the previous century. They'd be replacing an Ottoman rule, which they understood and could work around, for an unknown European imperial rule.

Those that did respond, Lawrence's converts generally, were promised that this would not happen. They were lied to. As was Lawrence.

And could I point out that if the British had behaved decently we wouldn't be in this mess?

Now let me tell you about the Treaty of Versailles ...

* sobs *

 

[CapelDodger]

IThey won for so long. And gloried in it. And we won the second siege of Vienna 'cos of the weather.

I sooo wouldn't have done that if I'd been in charge. It triggered the corruption of the Janissaries and the European discovery of coffee. A lethal combination.

Well, I remember a real change I saw. There was an earthquake in Turkey a few years back, and the Greeks laid aside their old hatred and gave all the help they could. And the Turks and the Greeks put aside their old quarrel, and made speeches about how the old feud was over now ... which dated back to the days of the Ottoman Empire, the sophistries of Giz to the contrary.

It seems to be working out OK.

Nobody mention Cyprus.

Oops.

If humans could leave aside paranoid lunacy and believe that other humans are humans, we might achieve great things.

Time was that Greeks, Jews and Muslims could co-exist in harmony because they all hated the Pope. I recommend Salonika : City of Ghosts.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Nobody mention Cyprus.

Oops.

The ****wits there are at odds with the population, remember.

 

[CapelDodger]

And could I point out that if the British had behaved decently we wouldn't be in this mess?

Now let me tell you about the Treaty of Versailles ...

* sobs *

I also recommend Clive Ponting's Thirteen Days : Diplomacy and Disaster, if you've missed it. Given the inanity that led to the Great War's outbreak, it's little wonder the outcome wasn't good. They had a war to have a war, victory was all, and the objective was dreamed up afterwards. The Iraq imbroglio ain't good, but it's not as egregious as that business.

 

[CapelDodger]

The ****wits there are at odds with the population, remember.

The problem is mostly at the Turkish national level. Cyprus is far less influential on Greek politics than it was a few decades ago, but not so much in Turkish politics.

The local problem is that property is involved, and more than a generation has passed. That means two families can regard the same house as their home.

But we're not here to talk about Cyprus, since hardly anybody's killing anybody over there.

 

[Mycroft]

What the f*** do you think culture is if it's not transmitted memories?

Music, literature, religion, other traditions. I think literature is most important, because its the stories we learn that form the values that shape our actions.

I personally only have a vague idea of what my family was doing during WWI, and that almost exclusively from my maternal grandmother, who was the only one who survived long enough to tell me. Nothing at all from Dad's side, though he did introduce me to "Grandma Skarsvog" a few weeks before she died. She, and I, are descended from Erik the Red. Just ask anyone from that side of the family, they will all swear it's true.

The culture that filled my head when I was young was only a tiny part family stories. Mostly it was the stories I read. The Bible, Aesop’s fables, Arthurian Legends, Canterbury tales, Tolkien, Robin Hood, and of course American classics from Jack London to Mark Twain.

So yeah, culture is a lot more than just transmitted memories. Further, of the transmitted memories, the more recent ones are the strongest. I would think your expectation that the Ottoman Empire still shapes Middle Eastern thinking to be comparable with thinking that the Spanish-American war shaped US thinking. They were both a long time ago, and we don’t think on them much anymore.

 

[Mike B.]

They won for so long. And gloried in it. And we won the second siege of Vienna 'cos of the weather.

And also you are confusing Islam as a political entity with the Arabs. Don't.

There is so much history behind all this. You haven't read much of it, have you?

You really missed my sarcasm, I guess.

I wasn't actually claiming that Islam has always been the victim, I was claiming that was sort of the mindset that allowed people to claim any possible slight as a "war against Islam."

BTW, pendant - the battle of Lepanto was the first real Turkish defeat, before the second siege of Vienna. Yes it was on the water, but it was still a defeat. And yes, I am quite aware that the Ottomans were not Arabs.

I believe your overall point about winning all the time and then losing all the time is valid. Bernard Lewis made it in "What Went Wrong?"

 

[Dr Adequate]

BTW, pendant - the battle of Lepanto was the first real Turkish defeat, before the second siege of Vienna.

Did I say differently?

I did not.

Nor am I some sort of amulet.

 

[CapelDodger]

BTW, pendant - the battle of Lepanto was the first real Turkish defeat, before the second siege of Vienna.

Siege of Malta, 1565. (Battle of Lepanto, 1571.)

Tamurlane gave them a spanking in the Battle of Ankara back in 1402.

 

[CapelDodger]

Music, literature, religion, other traditions. I think literature is most important, because its the stories we learn that form the values that shape our actions.

What are traditions but transmitted memories? The fables that stand the test of time are remarkably similar across cultures - cheats never prosper, where there's a will there's a way, know your place, rich chicks are hot, brothers can't be trusted, stuff like that.

So yeah, culture is a lot more than just transmitted memories. Further, of the transmitted memories, the more recent ones are the strongest. I would think your expectation that the Ottoman Empire still shapes Middle Eastern thinking to be comparable with thinking that the Spanish-American war shaped US thinking. They were both a long time ago, and we don’t think on them much anymore.

The experience of the region was of one empire after another right down to the Ottomans and the Europeans that followed them. Some parts were, at times, imperial powers themselves. Ba'athist Iraq was essentially a Sunni empire. The Sunnis' and Kurds' primary concern is that it not become a Shiite one.

US thinking is shaped by the English Civil War and, further back, the Celtic and Germanic antipathy to dynasties with absolute power.

Current Middle East thinking is strongly influenced by the intrusion of Western imperialism: the Mandates, the Balfour Declaration, military interventions, colonisation in Palestine, the anti-Mossadeq coup in 1953. The Iraq War looks like more of the same from the local perspective.