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School sued for religion policy

I'll_buy_that

Critical Thinker
I'll_buy_that
Joined
Oct 16, 2002
Messages
386
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/inquirer/living/education/14391801.htm?source=rss&channel=inquirer_education

This is the high school in my town. My kids are too young to attend high school yet, but barring any move on my part, this is where they will attend. As a taxpayer in this town, I am rather p o'ed that money is going to be poured into this lawsuit.

The school is not dissallowing these students from meeting, they just don't want the hate speach. I really don't see why the students can't just meet without it. They aren't being persecuted for their religeous beliefs.

I think these students are being used by the The Alliance Defense Fund for their own purposes. http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/main/default.aspx

It seems as though the Alliance has an agenda, "Defending out first liberty", but all they really want is a christian society that sees things the way they see it. I really don't think they would defend a Muslim in a similar situation.

I wish there was more info on it than this short article. What is your opinion given this limited amount of info?
 
I think it's time to stop putting up with hate speech from all people. l don't give a crap if they are Christians or not. I believe in free speech, but it has limits. You are not allowed to threaten to murder someone, for example. I think hate speech should be a crime.

It's time to stop putting up with violence and bigotry from Christians just because it's part of their religion. They have to obey the law like everyone else. Using persecution because of their religion is just an excuse to get in the news and to make it sound like their bigotry is OK.
 
I agree completely.

Kids, no matter what their sexual preference, should be allowed to go to school without being bullied.

Those christians should be down-right ashamed of themselves.
 
so if they were to stand in front of the school with signs that read "Jews are going to Hell", then this also would be protected?

Would we tolerate it? would the parents of these students be proud?
 
Just make a school rule that students are not allowed to speak in school unless called upon to do so in class. They're there to learn, not to convert each other to points of view, or socialize.
 
How Alanic that Christians are complaining constantly about being persecuted and how there is a war against them, but then turn around and assert their right to harrass people different from them on the grounds that it is their religious right.
 
I would have to come down on the side of free speech.

Not that I am defending the Chrisitans in any way, IMO what they say and think regarding homosexuality is disgusting. The point is, that is simply my opinion. I should not be barred from expressing my opinion unless I am infringing on the rights of anyone else. The First Amendment is not there to protect speech that is popular, it is there to make sure that the even most hateful Christian can freely speak his or her mind.

The only way we can let these Chrisitans be seen for what they really are-hateful, disgusting bigots-is by letting them speak. If we infring on their right to make their views on homosexuality clear, we are only furthering their cause by making them martyrs.
 
This is why religious groups should not be allowed to hold meetings in publicly-funded areas. Why can't they just go to their church if they want to do religious crap?
 
From the Philadelphia Inquirer article:
The Downingtown policies are similar to those in the universities, said David French, director of the group's Center for Academic Freedom.

"There is a national problem with suppressing free speech at high schools and colleges in the name of political correctness and it disproportionately affects conservative and Christian students and student organizations," French said.
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In the same way that the enforcement of speed limits "disproportionately affects" those who are inclined to drive fast.
 
SPQR said:
I would have to come down on the side of free speech.

Not that I am defending the Chrisitans in any way, IMO what they say and think regarding homosexuality is disgusting. The point is, that is simply my opinion. I should not be barred from expressing my opinion unless I am infringing on the rights of anyone else. The First Amendment is not there to protect speech that is popular, it is there to make sure that the even most hateful Christian can freely speak his or her mind.

The only way we can let these Chrisitans be seen for what they really are-hateful, disgusting bigots-is by letting them speak. If we infring on their right to make their views on homosexuality clear, we are only furthering their cause by making them martyrs.
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I agree. I don't like any infringement on free speach, but...

This is at a public school, the speach is intimidating and hateful. The school wouldn't allow a bully to harrass another child everyday because he doesn't like the kid's haircut. This would be free speach too, but the kids are there to learn, every child has to go to school so it should be a safe and comfortable environment in which to do so.
 
It's a tough call. The first paragraph of the article noted that the district said they had to change the name from "Bible Club" to "Prayer Club". That, to me, sounds like the very definition of "excessive entanglements" in the Lemon Test.

As for the anti-gay speech, it seems to me that it would depend on how they were expressing it. If they prayed every day for the souls of homosexuals, in their club meeting, then that shouldn't be a problem. If they had a banner made that said, "God hates queers!", I would have a personal and legal problem with that.

The problem with free speech is that it has to be free, even if you don't like it. A public school does have the right to protect its students from harassment, so if they are spilling the hate speech outside of their club meetings, they are going beyond their free speech rights. But if they just happen to be holding a religious club meeting, and that religion just happens to be anti-gay, then there's nothing for it. Unless you ban all activity that mentions anything that could be taken as religious, you're stuck, because you can't pick and choose what's ok.
 
I'll_buy_that said:
I agree. I don't like any infringement on free speach, but...

I'll_buy_that said:
This is at a public school, the speach is intimidating and hateful. The school wouldn't allow a bully to harrass another child everyday because he doesn't like the kid's haircut. This would be free speach too, but the kids are there to learn, every child has to go to school so it should be a safe and comfortable environment in which to do so.
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Yes, but what kind of harrassment are we talking about? If it is physical or public, such as banners delcaring, "God hates fags!", then I abosolutely think that the school should step in.

If, however the mere existance of this club and what it stands for offends another student, homosexual or not, the school IMO has no right to stop them (the club).
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writerdd said:
. I believe in free speech, but it has limits.
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To paraphrase Dr. Dave Berkman, my openly socialist journalist professor: The second you add a "but" after "I believe in free speech..." what you're really telling us that you don't really believe in free speech. If speech has "limits" it is no longer free.

You are not allowed to threaten to murder someone, for example.
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Threats are just words. They can't really hurt anyone. It's the actual act of murder we need to guard against and punish those who commit it.

I think hate speech should be a crime.
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What is "hate speech?" Who get's to define what opinions are and are not "hate speech." Will those who disagree with affirmative action be dubbed "racists" and be prosecuted under "hate speech" laws. What about atheists? The Religous Right has been bloviating about the so-called "War On Christianity" and how those filthy secularists are trying to dismantle their faith. Will fundementalists demand charges be pressed against those who post here for the way we lambast the Christian Right? Eventually, you're going to offend someone, why should that be crime?

Freedom of speech and the press isn't meant to protect speech that everyone agrees with. Mickey Mouse and nursery rhymes don't need first amendement protection. The sort of speech that always needs protection is the type that offends, enrages, challenges and even starts the occasional riot or two. I would rather live in a nation that allowed the most virulent racists to spew their hate-filled filith than give the state the power to censor political speech.

It's easy to be for censorship when you think it's only opinons you disagree with that are being silenced. Turn it around, what would you think if someone were demanding you be jailed for your beliefs? As we all know, the Christian Right demands that we censor all manner of speech and expression. Why do you wish to emmulate them?

You have one weapon to use against bigoted, hateful, and intolerant speech: MORE SPEECH! Speech that counters what passes for their arguments. Speech that points out how wrong they are. Speech that inspires others and drives them to make a better world for us all.

Censorship is the first resort of the lazy citizen who can't bring themselves to debate or change the TV channel.
 
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Meadmaker said:
The problem with free speech is that it has to be free, even if you don't like it. A public school does have the right to protect its students from harassment, so if they are spilling the hate speech outside of their club meetings, they are going beyond their free speech rights. But if they just happen to be holding a religious club meeting, and that religion just happens to be anti-gay, then there's nothing for it. Unless you ban all activity that mentions anything that could be taken as religious, you're stuck, because you can't pick and choose what's ok.
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I don't agree that discriminatory organizations should be allowed to use public property in the first place. If they want to preach intolerance and hate, there are plenty of churches for that kind of thing. Discriminatory clubs shouldn't be given public funding or support of any kind.
 
thaiboxerken said:
This is why religious groups should not be allowed to hold meetings in publicly-funded areas. Why can't they just go to their church if they want to do religious crap?
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Simple, like a hound dog with a full bladder, they're "marking their territory." The Christian Right believes that they should have a monopoly on our culture and government. They want to make sure that everyone that not only do they exist, but they call the shots. If they just kept to their churches, then they wouldn't be able to flaunt their alleged superiority over the heathen, sinners, and blasphemers of the land.

Essentially, it's a theological p*ssing contest.
 
thaiboxerken said:
I don't agree that discriminatory organizations should be allowed to use public property in the first place. If they want to preach intolerance and hate, there are plenty of churches for that kind of thing. Discriminatory clubs shouldn't be given public funding or support of any kind.
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They have all the right in the world to spew their filth, I just wouldn't want them to do it with my share of money the government confiscates from me.

If they want to hold their little club on school grounds. Then let them rent the room with money out of their own pockets. Otherwise, find somewhere else.

You have the right to free speech, you DON'T have the right to an free forum or a free audience.
 
I'm sure that they wouldn't defend this "freedom of speech/religion" if an atheist group opened up at the school that taught the dangers of christianity.
 
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