And Nothing Heard My Scream

I think all pigs should be fed to vampire bats in a massive bat-breeding program so we could have more of them.
Because pigs are stupid if cute but vampire bats are awesome!

Darwin and his donkey hated them, though.
 
How do you justify your conclusions as to what is right or wrong?

My conclusions as to right or wrong are based on my feelings of empathy with and sympathy for other beings, an idea of "fairness" or reciprocity, and my desire to live in a stable society.

I might just as well ask you how God justified his conclusions as to what is wrong and what is right. If God revealed himself tomorrow and told the people of the earth that they should start killing each other, would it be wrong not to do so? Would there, in fact , be anythingabout such a command that would make it morally different from the command not to kill?
 
My question is how do you decide that the conclusion you come to as to what's right or wrong is superior to anyone else's conclusion? edit: Or put another way what gives you that right?

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. The question is how do you decide that the conclusion you come to about what god to believe in is superior to anyone else's conclusion? Or put another way, what gives you the right to believe someone else is going to hell (or whatever outcome nonbelievers of your religion face)?

There are any number of ways, combined, that an atheist can come to a conclusion about what's right and wrong, and they may even feel that it's not necessarily superior to anyone else's, but seems to be what works best for them--just as there are varying degrees of ecumenical cooperation among similar religions who nonetheless can argue endlessly about smaller differences.

And I'd suggest that the ways in which atheists come to conclusions about right and wrong, are similar to how religious people choose their religions.

--Observation of others' behavior, following role models, avoiding others' mistakes, discovering what motivates the behavior of people they admire

--Thinking to themselves about the logical outcome of different behavior, observing "how the world works" and trying to make sense of it, forming their own theories that they can defend against others' objections

--Responding to a lifetime of societal pressure, either praise for following cultural traditions or a lack of punishment for doing something that would be considered unethical/sacreligious in another culture.

--A gut feeling. "It just seems like the right thing to do." "I don't know how I know, but I know it's true." "When I first heard it, I knew from that moment...." One can get into neutransmitters, evolution, etc. to explain it, but subjectively that's how most people express that aspect of belief.

Human nature being what it is, once some combination of all those things set a person along a certain course, they may consciously have to change the way they feel about some things, but if their overall chosen course has too many illogical, indefensible, "just doesn't feel right" aspects, they'll probably pick a different course, rather than stick rigidly to their original choice.

As an exaggerated example, the average person who wants to convert to a religion that otherwise seems to fit, but requires them to quit smoking, will probably go to the effort of quitting smoking, even if they wouldn't otherwise. However, if it requires them to sacrifice their first-born, they'd probably say, "no thanks," and pick another religion. Same way, an atheist whose logic requires them to do no harm to any humans or animals might give up eating meat, but probably wouldn't stand by while a rabid dog attacks their child; instead they'd rethink their logic about circumstances when the rights of one creature do take precedence over another.
 
Oops... I got to the end of page 1 and thought I was at the end of the thread. I'm probably repeating some other post -- if it matters anymore.

BATS GOT SOULS!


Vampire bats will act as blood doners to each other to keep other vampire bats from dying of starvation. Do undead vampire bats have souls? :wink:
 
My question is how do you decide that the conclusion you come to as to what's right or wrong is superior to anyone else's conclusion? edit: Or put another way what gives you that right?
Once again, if we stop imposing our ideas on reality, which reality does not support, then the problems caused by our attempt to impose our imaginings on the world vanish with them.

I don't see any "right" here at all. <*Poof* Problem of determining what gives anyone a right vanishes>

Each of us must decide how to act in this world. No one else can do that for us. We can choose to follow a code of conduct that has been established before we were born. We can choose to select from many. We can choose to go it alone. That's just the natural state of things. I don't see any rights involved.

Personally, I also don't see the things "right" and "wrong" in the world, either. <*Poof* Problem of deciding "right" and "wrong" vanishes>

There are only actions and consequences. That's how I decide what to do -- I ask myself what the result will be. And being human, a member of a social species which has altruistic as well as selfish urges, and having to face the consequences every day of my choices in society, I try to do what I think will have the best outcome for myself, my family, my country, my species, and my planet. (Sadly, however, it so far has proven impossible for me to consistently do all that at once.)

Other folks will come to their own conclusions and do what they will. The Powers of the Earth will shift and change, and laws and punishments along with them. Talk of "rights" is only so much jabber, unless we're talking about rights in a legal sense.

But if someone calls the shots differently from the way I call them, where does this talk of moral rights get me? Nowhere.

The question of what gives someone the right <*Poof*> to say their idea of right and wrong <*Poof* *Poof*> is superior is a non-question. My concern is with the non-theoretical, non-abstract, very mundane and very real power structures that allow one group to impose its code of conduct on another.
 
Personally, I also don't see the things "right" and "wrong" in the world, either. <*Poof* Problem of deciding "right" and "wrong" vanishes>

Hmm... maybe I should convert. If orange skepticism gives you magic powers, I want in.
 
Roboramma,

Thanks for your answer. If you don't mind I'll have to consider it a little more before I respond.

Bacon has been mentioned a few times. I do like bacon but I really like barbaqued spare ribs. I do a pretty good job on the grill. Pork though is one of the hardest meats to digest and pigs are scavengers. The idea of unclean is a health issue. People that have reverted to a strict levitical diet have had amazing changes in their health.

I think bats have souls.

Gene

Pigs might be scavengers, but they're still used in things like organ transplants in humans... domestic pigs are given a diet that is probably better than the school lunches I got in grammer school (except on cheese pizza day). People who revert to a strict levitical diet are missing out on the joys of cold beer and hot barbecue.
 
Mr. Corkern, I'd love to hear your reply to the questions raised in post #63 by Roboramma (and by others in later posts).


I am also curious as to why you posted this stuff on a skeptic board. You have a seemingly unshakable belief that atheists, when acting rationally, will murder people at the drop of a hat. Given that belief, why would you tell a collection of hundreds of atheists that if they were to truly act rationally, they would murder people by the dozens. Bringing it up on a skeptics' board seems a tad immoral. What if we were to adopt your philosphy and started killing people?
 
Mr. Corkern, I'd love to hear your reply to the questions raised in post #63 by Roboramma (and by others in later posts).


I am also curious as to why you posted this stuff on a skeptic board. You have a seemingly unshakable belief that atheists, when acting rationally, will murder people at the drop of a hat. Given that belief, why would you tell a collection of hundreds of atheists that if they were to truly act rationally, they would murder people by the dozens. Bringing it up on a skeptics' board seems a tad immoral. What if we were to adopt your philosphy and started killing people?

And why do you think he would answer any question? He owes us answers, that's a certainty, but given the utter contempt with which he's treated people here, do you think he'd deign to even try? Frankly, he's reminding me more and more of Kurious Kathy and 1inChrist.

No, wait. Scratch that. KK and 1in could actually be entertaining. This guy's just a pain in the @$$.
 
And why do you think he would answer any question? He owes us answers, that's a certainty, but given the utter contempt with which he's treated people here, do you think he'd deign to even try? Frankly, he's reminding me more and more of Kurious Kathy and 1inChrist.

No, wait. Scratch that. KK and 1in could actually be entertaining. This guy's just a pain in the @$$.

You called it right.

From the other thread:

I am sorry I cannot reply to all posts, or explain in greater detail. There are two reasons for this.

---I flat don't have time. Sorry.

---I have discovered that when people resort to insults instead of calm discussion, it's because they are unable or unwilling to refute the argument. I have furthered discovered that people who resort to insults are people who's minds cannot be changed by any means whatsoever, and it is a pure waste of time to argue. Such people lack the capacity for intellectual honesty.

[snip]

Another random thought:

Somewhere in all these insults somebody actually, finally hit upon what would settle this argument for good and all. It was quite a startling thing to see. (A lot of the people in here really do have minds, but they're certainly untrained.)
.

To me he seems less like KK and 1inChrist than that other poster we had several months ago who went on about "I have an important secret insight into philosophy but I won't share it with you because you were mean to me." I forget the name (thankfully).
 
Roboramma,

I was looking at this thread earlier and then I looked away from that computer then back and the screen was blank. After checking what I suspected I found out that the power supply of the computer I just built gave up the ghost. <moment of silence> I hate to talk about the dearly departed but it was a piece of junk. Someone needs to design a decent power supply.

I can't disagree with your impression that if a person is a christian they discount any other religion. Here is a distinction though between christianity and islam. Although I think the muslim is going to burn in hell I'm not willing to send them there today. I don't see it as my job to hasten the process. They on the other hand will cut your head off and send you to judgment, ready or not. In christianity Jesus explains that there is no way to the father except thru him (belief in him). So a christian naturally dismisses any other way to God. There is some confusion as to what is judgment. Although I believe that if you don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah you're destined for hell I don't think it's my job to remove all possibilities for you. You still have the right to think and do what you please until you wear out your body. Judgment is final and it's not my job.

In your three cup analogy you don't give the possibility that someone could pick up a cup and see if there is a ball. I think I've done that.

When I consider the lives and the teachings of the founders of christianity and islam I see the moral superiority of christianity. I'm not interested in detailing all the differences but that's the conclusion I've come to. When I think about the contradiction of the zen I think it is ok for prose or poetry but it falls way short of a viable philosophy that you could base significant life decisions on. When I consider judaism I think that Jesus is a jew yet no ordinary jew. I consider him on the level of Abraham; a friend of God.

You might think I'm being superficial and I can't disagree. In spite of that I've given the matter quite a bit of thought. I'm sure you have also. I apologize for not giving more of an explaination. I don't disagree that you deserve more of an expaination.

It's 3:08am houston time and I'm exhausted. Night.

Gene
 
Piggy,
Once again, if we stop imposing our ideas on reality, which reality does not support, then the problems caused by our attempt to impose our imaginings on the world vanish with them.

It's kind of late and I'm a little tired but I didn't want you to think that I've ignored your thoughts. I think that you're really shallow; about like the atlantic. I'm a little slow, Piggy. I need a little time to think about what you've said.

Gene
 
Pup,

I'd love to disagree with you but you haven't given me any room to. You've pointed out:
  • vicariously knowing something
  • thinking a matter out
  • peer pressure
  • intuition

These are forces that an atheist or a christian deals with. From my own personal experience I've consiered the diety of Jesus and dismissed it. There is not sufficient evidence to believe such a thing. That's not too significant an idea if you're an atheist but from a christian perspective I'm quite an outcast. The reasoning is that I believe in a different Jesus than what actually is and I'm as damned to hell as you are.

As I see it the truth is what it is and no one can change it. I do think that God can say something is true and it will be but there are some truths that are true and even God can change them. That's about what I believe.

Gene
 
Vampire bats will act as blood doners to each other to keep other vampire bats from dying of starvation. Do undead vampire bats have souls? :wink:
I think undead vampire bats have souls but when they become dead they're souls are earased. How are those bunny slopes in the poconos? Also you've got very good looking eyes. Do they see as well as they look?

Gene
 
My conclusions as to right or wrong are based on my feelings of empathy with and sympathy for other beings, an idea of "fairness" or reciprocity, and my desire to live in a stable society.

I might just as well ask you how God justified his conclusions as to what is wrong and what is right.

I think that given your intelllect, resources, reasoning and motivation that you've arrived at the truth. I trust your judgement more than I would lenin's. My point is that given those variables that some don't manage as well as you do. In most things I think you've come to the same conclusions that God has but you've taken a little longer to do it. I don't think you've had these same ideals when you were 2.

I also think that God can define some truths yet not to the extent that the ideals that you find true would change.

Gene
 
Hey AgingYoung... I'll come back to this thread later, but I just wanted to say I really appreciate your posts. :)
 
Roboramma,

I can't disagree with your impression that if a person is a christian they discount any other religion. Here is a distinction though between christianity and islam. Although I think the muslim is going to burn in hell I'm not willing to send them there today. I don't see it as my job to hasten the process. They on the other hand will cut your head off and send you to judgment, ready or not. In christianity Jesus explains that there is no way to the father except thru him (belief in him). So a christian naturally dismisses any other way to God. There is some confusion as to what is judgment. Although I believe that if you don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah you're destined for hell I don't think it's my job to remove all possibilities for you.
...
Gene

Gene,

I think you need to face the following questions and think carefully about them.

1) You condemn the Muslim fundamentalists for decapitation - yet Chrsitianity, and most other religions, have been used as an excuse for similar atrocities for the majority of the the past two thousand years. How is their behaviour so different to that of a crusading Christian of the middle or dark ages? Does the fact that these crusaders stole, raped and pillaged in the name of their (Christian!) God, and in the name of Jesus, make it ok? Don't forget that if you want to go down the "we, as Christians, are all much more enlightened now" route then you'll have to come up with a new reason why enlightened Muslims are "damned to hell".

2) Imagine this scenario: You (personally) happened to have been born a hundred years ago, long before mass communication, in a country where a different religon was taught and practised (e.g. Hindu, Taoism) and you were never exposed to any other faiths or teachings, and so you knew nothing of Jesus as a concept. But you lived a good life, effectively conforming (unknowingly) to the teachings of Jesus ... why would you be any less deserving of a place in the kingdom of heaven than someone who led the exact same life but happened to be born in a Christian country? That is the crux of the "when you understand why" quote from earlier in this thread. Why has the Christian God put many millions of people on this planet for the past two thousand years, and only allowed a small fraction of them to earn eternal life by the sheer luck of where and when they were born? Indeed, what made you so deserving that you got pre-selected to be in the group that (includes me and) is "in with a chance".

Interested to hear your thoughts on these questions.
 
kieran,

You condemn the Muslim fundamentalists for decapitation - yet Chrsitianity, and most other religions, have been used as an excuse for similar atrocities for the majority of the the past two thousand years. How is their behaviour so different to that of a crusading Christian of the middle or dark ages?
The christians weren't wrong to repell islamic invasion into euorpe.

Does the fact that these crusaders stole, raped and pillaged in the name of their (Christian!) God, and in the name of Jesus, make it ok? Don't forget that if you want to go down the "we, as Christians, are all much more enlightened now" route then you'll have to come up with a new reason why enlightened Muslims are "damned to hell".
I'm aware of the nature of the atrocities of the christians. They were wrong. There is a little difference between a christian that rapes and a muslim. When a christian rapes they're very wrong. When a muslim rapes a slave they have that quranic right.

You can't steal, rape and pillage (but you repeat yourself) in the name of God. If you want to do that you're a liar. Liars don't have a place in the kingdom of God and it's no matter that at that time they seem to be running christianity.

A christian is someone that follows the example and teachings of Jesus. When Jesus was kicked back and relaxed he taught some very interesting things. One of those things was to love your enemies. That was an easy thing to teach when you're relaxing in the hills of Judea. It's not such an easy thing to believe though when your enemies are ripping your back off. With Jesus there was no hypocrisy. He acted as if it were the truth no matter what the circumstance. That's a tough act to follow. Just because someone is a christian doesn't make me responsible for what they do. I have enough problems being responsible for my life.

Gene

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