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Rumsfeld and the Generals

One of the hard and fast rules I lived by in the military was to avoid, as much as possible, saying something along the lines of "The Captain said you guys have to do this." Even if the order originated with the Captain. It would undermine my own authority. You do it, sailor, because I told you to do it.

That's how it works. So if I passed on an unlawful order from the Captain, I was as accountable as he was. That's part of the job.
 
WildCat said:
This is VERY dicey ground. When the military has final say, or even influence over, the civilian government you are in dangerous territory. How far away is the day then when the civilian gov't has to have the support of the military? Recent events in Pakistan come to mind...

Politicizing the military is a very dangerous thing for any democracy, IMHO.
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Meadmaker mentioned the public right to know, I mentioned the means of conveying concerns to the public. The danger the military poses is down to its physical ability to impose. But this is not about tanks being parked on the White House lawns.

This is taking place in a time of war. At such times in a democracy the public, the military, and the executive all have to contribute to finding the right policies. That requires lines of communication.
 
Well, I'm old enough to remember that usually, whenever somebody with stars on his shoulders dared to say something about public policy or criticize the secretary of defense,, the left would go ballistic: "Civilian control! Civlian control! The pentagon wants a military dictatorship!".

I've heard none of these (usually very vocals) opponents of military intervention in the civilian authority's policies in the last few days. Have you?
 
Skeptic said:
Well, I'm old enough to remember that usually, whenever somebody with stars on his shoulders dared to say something about public policy or criticize the secretary of defense,, the left would go ballistic: "Civilian control! Civlian control! The pentagon wants a military dictatorship!".

I've heard none of these (usually very vocals) opponents of military intervention in the civilian authority's policies in the last few days. Have you?
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People went ballistic because a flag officer said something?

Sorry, but I do not think that is right. Or at least, I do not know of any such cases.

Would you have a citation of some sort about that?
 
Skeptic said:
Well, I'm old enough to remember that usually, whenever somebody with stars on his shoulders dared to say something about public policy or criticize the secretary of defense ...
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Retired generals wear no stars. I'm unaware of serving generals who are publicly crticising Rumsfeld's policy.
 
CapelDodger said:
Retired generals wear no stars. I'm unaware of serving generals who are publicly crticising Rumsfeld's policy.
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Hmmm...

But The Wall Street Journal says that now his grip is slipping as some uniformed officers increasingly chart their own course.
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0421/p09s02-cods.html

One current general said that while the recent criticisms may have brought the uniformed military's strained relationship with Rumsfeld into the open, debate over whether they should be more forceful about voicing disagreements had raged for months.

"The Newbolds and Eatons and the public discussion is spilling over from the internal discussion," said the currently serving general. "This has been a rising issue within the military."
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...pr13,1,1745627.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
 
Mark said:
"The Newbolds and Eatons and the public discussion is spilling over from the internal discussion," said the currently serving general. "This has been a rising issue within the military."
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They're discussing a military rising? With the backing of the liberal media and an opportunistic, panderist even, Democratic opooisiton in disarray - they could pull it off! That would seal Rumsfeld's place in history, on the same shelf as Captain Bligh.
 
Retired Flag Officers publicly critize policy all the time, and it is no big deal.

General Clark ran for president last time and he constantly critized Bush polices.

Further, the Center for Defense Information has been very vocal and very critical of various polices over many years

Mission Statement

The Center for Defense Information is dedicated to strengthening security through: international cooperation; reduced reliance on unilateral military power to resolve conflict; reduced reliance on nuclear weapons; a transformed and reformed military establishment; and, prudent oversight of, and spending on, defense programs.

...

http://www.cdi.org/

President, World Security Institute: Bruce G. Blair
He received his B.S. in communications from the University of Illinois in 1970. He then entered the U.S. Air Force for four years, serving as a Minuteman ICBM launch control officer and support officer for the Strategic Air Command’s Airborne Command Post (1970-1974).

Distinguished Military Fellow: Gen. Charles Wilhelm
Gen. Wilhelm, who retired in September 2000, has had a long and illustrious military career, including serving as head of U.S. Southern Command from 1997 to 2000. Prior to that, he served as commander of U.S. Marine Corps Forces, Atlantic; Commanding General, Fleet Marine Force, Atlantic; Commander, U.S. Marine Forces, South; Commanding General, 11 Marine Force; Commanding General, Marine Striking Force Atlantic, Camp Lejeune, N.C.

Distinguished Military Fellow: Gen. Anthony Zinni
Gen. Zinni, who retired in July 2000 after nearly 40 years of service, was head of U.S. Central Command, MacDill Air Force Base, Fla., from 1997 to 2000, a position that included responsibility for 25 countries ranging from the Horn of Africa and Egypt to the Arabian Peninsula to Southwest and Central Asia. From 1994 to 1996, he commanded the I Marine Expeditionary Force; during 1995, he commanded the Combined Task Force for Operation United Shield protecting the withdrawal of U.N. forces from Somalia. Gen. Zinni served in several other capacities in Somalia: from 1992-1993 as operations director for the Unified Task Force Somalia for Operation Restore Hope; and in 1993, as assistant to the U.S. Special Envoy to Somalia during Operation Continue Hope.
 
CapelDodger said:
They're discussing a military rising? With the backing of the liberal media and an opportunistic, panderist even, Democratic opooisiton in disarray - they could pull it off! That would seal Rumsfeld's place in history, on the same shelf as Captain Bligh.
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Rumsfeld has sealed his own place in history, and did it entirely without the help of the mythical "liberal media." He did the old fashoned way: by being incompetent.
 
Jocko said:
Sure, when you don't demand a name, you can pretend it's any number you please.
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And when you are blindly loyal, you can pretend nothing is wrong, ever.

It's interesting. The conservatives on this board are making the argument that serving officers must not, ever, criticize Rumsfeld. Then they make the argument that serving officers must be happy with Rumsfeld because they are not complaining. It's a perfect circle.
 
Mark said:
And when you are blindly loyal, you can pretend nothing is wrong, ever.
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When I criticize your politics, Mark, does it affect the way you live your life? Do you think your criticisms of mine affect my life?
 
I kinda look at it like any large corporation. How many people complain about their boss at work? So what's unusual about a handful of Generals - out of thousands - who disagree with their old boss?

IMO the media spun a mountain from a molehill.
 
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