Are you suggesting that the Chinese can visit the US as they wish? Or are you saying that because our neighbors jump off the bridge, we will too? Wasn’t it the difference between them and us that our citizens had more freedom?
Family Values Under the Bush Administration
- Thread starter Cleon
- Start date
Given that Hussein had no WMDs, I would say the sanctions against Iraq were pretty effective. It's the war that has been ineffective...much like the Cuban embargo.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
All of which make for lovely soundbites about how eeeevil Cuba is, but it still doesn't explain why American citizens shouldn't be allowed to go there or, for that matter, buy a Cuban cigar when they want to. Especially when a country like China--which, again, makes Cuba look like Disneyland--is fair game.
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
I'd prefer to write to my congressman and ask him to move to Cuba.
Whoah, are you saying that starving the population of Iraq while Hussein played peek-a-boo with inspectors for a dozen years was an acceptable status quo?
I agree that the Cuban embargo is counterproductive, but I'm old enough to remember the little incident that sparked it - and understand the POV of people willing to endure the embargo's effects for a larger reason.
No, I am saying he had no WMDs...as anyone could tell based on the incredibly flimsy evidence for them we were given at the time by Colin Powell, et. al. What status quo? Huseein's teeth had been pulled by the first Gulf War and the sanctions against him.
As far as the population at large, given the tens of thousands who are dying there now (not to mention the untold more wounded), the war was hardly a means to helping them out.
What utlimately sparked it was that Castro originally came to the US for help against the corrupt Somoza regime, and we sided with Somoza and tried to assasinate Castro. The expatriate Cuban lobby (and now their descendants), holding on to the vain hope that they will get their siezed property back, are the ones keeping this ridiculous embargo intact.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Batista, not Somoza. Somoza was the bastard dictator we supported in Nicaragua, not the bastard dictator we supported in Cuba. That was Fulgencio Batista.
And this has to do with Cuba and sanctions... how? No one is saying Fidel is armed with anything stronger than a killer PR team.
So which is it, Mark? Dying of starvation or dying in the crossfire? Which is worse? Which one is more meaningless?
If you think that's the only reason (as amended by Cleon) - even the main reason - then you're a lot younger than I thought you were.
I don't know. We mishandled Iraq totally.
If you are referring to the missle crisis, that was long after we had made severe, crucial, mistakes with Castro. And he backed down anyway.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
No worries. Batista, Somoza, Trujillo, Pinochet...It can be hard to keep track sometimes.
Yet you disagree. Curious.
Since we're talking about sanctions, I presume "We" is the UN, yes?
Yeah, no hard feelings there, and it was really our fault it even happened. Sheesh.
The US and the UN, yes.
I never said anything of the kind. How do you expect me to respond if you misquote me (I'll stop short of saying "lie.")? It was not our fault and the cirsis was handled very, very well (one of Kennedy's shining moments, of which there weren't all that many, IMO).
Does Castro have bad feelings about it? I don't know (and neither do you); I have always suspected he was caving to Soviet pressure in the first place (which is merely a speculation; I have no hard evidence). In any case, what on earth does it have to do with the embargo lasting another 43 years?!?!
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Really, the Missile Crisis had more to do with the Soviet Union than Cuba, anyway. The Cubans had very little say in what actually went down, despite the fact that it happened on their territory. But the embargo was already in place by the time the Crisis occurred, so the Crisis certainly didn't cause the embargo.
So your argument for lifting the sanctions against Castro comes down to this: We help support one murderous dictatorship, therefore we should support every murderous dictatorship (plus you want to be able to smoke his cigars).
Does your list of approved dictatorships include Saudi Arabia?
Pakistan?
Apartheid-era South Africa?
Somoza-era Nicaragua?
Pinochet-era Chile?
Batista-era Cuba?
Anti_Hypeman
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2005
- Messages
- 1,007
Do you really want another destitute country our corporations can plunder? The embargo does some good it keeps Nike from building childrens forced labor camps down there.
I'd nominate this as the silliest post of the day, except that the day ain't over yet.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
I appreciate your attempt to construct my argument, but I have this irritating habit of thinking for myself.
My argument for lifting the sanctions against Cuba are:
1) It makes no sense whatsoever.
2) Even if it did, it clearly isn't working.
3) There are about 11,000,000 people in Cuba, only one of which is Fidel Castro. Punishing 11,000,000 people and restricting the rights of 300,000,000 Americans because you don't like one guy is ridiculous.
Now, do you have any reasonable, logical arguments to make in support of the embargo? "Cuba bad" isn't a reasonable, logical argument, because as you point out, there are much worse regimes out there we have no problem doing business with and allowing people to travel to.