The result of brutal occupation? (Tel Aviv attack)

[a_unique_person]

I hate to tell you this but short of total elimination of the entire palestinian population whichis not going to happen... I don't see how attacks like this will stop in the short term or even medium term.. I think we are looking at generational change as being the most likely.....how about 10 to 15 years for things to settle down completely? sound scary? Maybe it does but what if we had started 10 or 15 years ago?how about we start now?

Now that Israel has said " I think I'll act rationally now", to end the madness, it assumes the other side will too.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Now that Israel has said " I think I'll act rationally now", to end the madness, it assumes the other side will too.

You forget that Hamas, Islamic Jihad are islamic fundamentalists, they are also designated terrorist organizations recognized as such by the US, EU, Canada and Israel. Islamic fundamentalist terror organizations are generally mad, irrational, and dangerous.

For instance.

Tue Apr 18, 6:20 PM ET

AMMAN, Jordan - Jordan accused Hamas activists of smuggling missiles and other weapons into the kingdom and said Tuesday it was canceling a planned visit of the Palestinian foreign minister — the second diplomatic snub for the Hamas-led government in a week.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar's visit to Jordan, which was planned for Wednesday, had been "put off until further notice," a Jordanian government spokesman said.

The Jordanian spokesman, Nasser Judeh, told The Associated Press that "missiles, explosives and automatic weapons were seized in the last couple of days."

So what do the terrorists of Hamas have to say about Jordan's claim?

Wed Apr 19, 2:15 AM ET

GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas denied on Wednesday accusations by Jordan that the Islamic militant group had stored weapons on its territory and said it regretted Amman's cancellation of a visit by the Palestinian foreign minister.

"These accusations are false and completely contradict the well-known Hamas attitude that it does not intervene ... in the internal affairs of other countries," Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said.

THere's your Hamas ceasefire....but as usual the typical Palestinian response is "Who us? You must be kidding...we would never do that, those are not our missiles, explosives and automatic weapons that you seized, these accusations are false."

It reminds me of Arafat, despite being caught red-handed, the Palestinian Authority denied any knowledge of the Karine-A, dismissing the incident as an Israeli "propaganda campaign." The Palestinians went from Arafat lying to Hamas lying.

 

[Darat]

yes...a plan.

build the wall? where? On the border? where is the border?

Wherever Israel decides it is - that may sound facetious however that is the reality of the situation i.e only the Israeli's have the will and the capability to impose a border.

Treat them as a foreign nation? How can you when they are not a nation. Maybe you do have a plan after all...Is addressing thier nationalist ambition part of your plan?

Not Israel's problem -Israel should look after its own borders and what people do in a foreign land is of no concern to Israel (see point below for a caveat).

will leaving the palestinians to thier own devises preclude shelling them?

If attacks on Israel are directly launched from a foreign land I believe that the Israelis have every "right" to take action to remove such threats - including killing the people in the foreign land that made such attacks.

 

[Darat]

you are correct, I apologise. Palestinians could swim across the Med, I forgot that method of contact with the outside world. They could also beg passage from Egypt then cross the sinia (on foot due to the fuel embargo?)....too easy, what are they whining about.

If you look on a map of the world you will see many states that are completely surrounded by other states (see central Europe and central Africa for some examples). Why is it different for the proto-state of Palestine?

I totally agree about the good relations bit...What about the human rights of the citizens.....what should they have to do to earn thier human rights? Pardon me but I thought being human was enough....

This is why Israel should remove itself from any association with the proto-state, then it is up to the citizens of such a state to decide what human rights they wish and how they will ensure they are delivered.

yes the wall goes up....you seem to have stopped denying its the future border of Israel....lets get it up asap so we can start to try to deal with this longrunning land dispute. Israel should take all the land it wants and then at least the starting point of the next problem is known....When demands are made for people to recognise Israel at least we will know what Israel is.

I agree.

OMG mycroft...do you believe that once this disengagement stuff is enacted that means Israel will still not have the final say if "Palestine" is proclaimed? Where did you get that one from?

If the political will in Israel is to serve the best interests of the citizens of Israel then I believe it will happen.

I hate to tell you this but short of total elimination of the entire palestinian population whichis not going to happen... I don't see how attacks like this will stop in the short term or even medium term.. I think we are looking at generational change as being the most likely.....how about 10 to 15 years for things to settle down completely? sound scary? Maybe it does but what if we had started 10 or 15 years ago?how about we start now?

I totally agree.

 

[zenith-nadir]

They could also beg passage from Egypt then cross the sinia (on foot due to the fuel embargo?)....too easy, what are they whining about.

Let's deal with the utter fabrications in that one sentence.

1) The Rafah crossing into Egypt is controlled by the Palestinians. The crossing operates under joint Egyptian-Palestinian management and under European Union supervision. Palestinians are free to travel through the Rafah crossing into Egypt at their leisure. They do not have to "beg passage".

2) There is no fuel embargo, none whatsoever, no one has placed a legal prohibition on fuel commerce with the Palestinians. Ergo they do not have to cross the Sinai on foot.


JREfers why do you debate someone who posts total demonstrable fabrications?

 

[Mycroft]

Now that Israel has said " I think I'll act rationally now", to end the madness, it assumes the other side will too.

Where do you get these from?

Israel seems to have woken up from decades of expecting the other side to act rationally, despite all evidence to the contrary, and has now adopted a plan where the actions of the other side don't matter.

Not only are you dead wrong in citing Israel's expectations, but you actually acknowledge Israel is the side that's acting rationally, yet still turn it into Israel bashing. Amazing!

 

[a_unique_person]

Let's deal with the utter fabrications in that one sentence.

1) The Rafah crossing into Egypt is controlled by the Palestinians. The crossing operates under joint Egyptian-Palestinian management and under European Union supervision. Palestinians are free to travel through the Rafah crossing into Egypt at their leisure. They do not have to "beg passage".

2) There is no fuel embargo, none whatsoever, no one has placed a legal prohibition on fuel commerce with the Palestinians. Ergo they do not have to cross the Sinai on foot.


JREfers why do you debate someone who posts total demonstrable fabrications?

Webfusion answered that question already, IIRC. The 'road' as such, is not practical for transporting goods. The sea is cut off by the Israeli Navy to all traffic, Palestinian fisherman in small boats only are allowed to land or launch from the beach. The airport is closed, at Israel's insistence. The only commercial quality route in/out is via Israel.

 

[Darat]

Webfusion answered that question already, IIRC. The 'road' as such, is not practical for transporting goods. The sea is cut off by the Israeli Navy to all traffic, Palestinian fisherman in small boats only are allowed to land or launch from the beach. The airport is closed, at Israel's insistence. The only commercial quality route in/out is via Israel.

If that is the case then Isreal should end that practice. If the proto-state has a coastline then it should be observed by the Israeli's just as any other state's coastline would be.

 

[Manny]

If that is the case then Isreal should end that practice. If the proto-state has a coastline then it should be observed by the Israeli's just as any other state's coastline would be.

It's a nice thought, and one definitely hopes that over time that comes to be. However, the Palestinians have shown a consistent tendency to use shipping rights for things other than those which would help their economy (cite) (cite) (cite). Maybe if the Palestinians elected a government which was concerned more with helping Palestinians and less with importing things they intend to launch over the border something could be worked out.

 

[Darat]

It's a nice thought, and one definitely hopes that over time that comes to be. However, the Palestinians have shown a consistent tendency to use shipping rights for things other than those which would help their economy (cite) (cite) (cite). Maybe if the Palestinians elected a government which was concerned more with helping Palestinians and less with importing things they intend to launch over the border something could be worked out.

I understand all that but my opinion is that it is no more Israel's business what the proto-state imports then it is what France imports to the UK (well OK we are both part of the EU so we do have some say via the EU on what France can and can not import but I'm sure you get the idea).

And I can guess a possible objection you may bring up regarding this free-market approach e.g. no other purpose but to use these against Israel. However there is nothing to stop Israel blasting the hell out of anyone and anyplace in the proto-state if they try to use any such imports against Israel.

 

[zenith-nadir]

If that is the case then Isreal should end that practice. If the proto-state has a coastline then it should be observed by the Israeli's just as any other state's coastline would be.

Israel controls the coast Darat because the Palestinians continue terror. The borders to Israel are closed because the Palestinians continue terror. The airspace and airport are closed because the Palestinians continue terror. All of the above are done because the Palestinian Authority refuses to disarm and dismantle the Palestinian terror organizations even after hundreds of promises to do so and several internationally-brokered peace agreements that the Palestinian Authority signed.

What people want is everything to be opened regardless if Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades continue terror. It's amazing hypocrisy in a post 9-11 world.

I understand all that but my opinion is that it is no more Israel's business what the proto-state imports then it is what France imports to the UK....

If France was terrorizing Britain and had been previously caught importing weaponry to terrorize Britain you can bet your life that it would become Britains business what France imports.

 

[Manny]

However there is nothing to stop Israel blasting the hell out of anyone and anyplace in the proto-state if they try to use any such imports against Israel.

That's definitely true. It would be my approach. When something happened like the suicide bomber this week who was supported by the majority party of the elected Palestinian government, I'd just start a bombing campaign. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. I'd say, "You say you want a war? Now you've got one. This is what a war looks like. Let us know when you want it to stop. All you have to do is stop yourselves."

Israel has chosen a more peaceful approach which they hope will result in far fewer deaths on both sides.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The 'road' as such, is not practical for transporting goods.

Then I guess if the Palestinians want to profit off trade with Israel the Palestinian Authority better get off it's *** and take control of the known and designated Palestinian terror organizations threatening Israel.

The sea is cut off by the Israeli Navy to all traffic, Palestinian fisherman in small boats only are allowed to land or launch from the beach. The airport is closed, at Israel's insistence. The only commercial quality route in/out is via Israel.

All the more reason for the Palestinian Authority to get off it's *** and take control of the known and designated Palestinian terror organizations threatening Israel.

 

[Darat]

Israel controls the coast Darat because the Palestinians continue terror. The borders to Israel are closed because the Palestinians continue terror. The airspace and airport are closed because the Palestinians continue terror. All of the above are done because the Palestinian Authority refuses to disarm and dismantle the Palestinian terror organizations even after hundreds of promises to do so and several internationally-brokered peace agreements that the Palestinian Authority signed.

And?

What people want is everything to be opened regardless if Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades continue terror. It's amazing hypocrisy in a post 9-11 world.

I'm not bothered about what "people want" (whoever those "people" are) I am bothered about what the only people who can do anything about the situation do i.e. the Israelis.

Engagement with the proto-state has been proved beyond any reasonable doubt both wrong and ineffective (as evidence for this I would point to the first part of your post that I quoted). Israel should deal with Israeli problems which means more or less means what happens within its own borders not the problems of another nation (or in this case proto-nation). (With my normal caveats of course.)

 

[Darat]

That's definitely true. It would be my approach. When something happened like the suicide bomber this week who was supported by the majority party of the elected Palestinian government, I'd just start a bombing campaign. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. I'd say, "You say you want a war? Now you've got one. This is what a war looks like. Let us know when you want it to stop. All you have to do is stop yourselves."

Israel has chosen a more peaceful approach which they hope will result in far fewer deaths on both sides.

I can't agree with such an approach - it amounts to nothing more then genocide which whilst of course being a certain solution to the current violence it is not a path I can contemplate given the relatively low level of violence against Israel.

 

[Manny]

And that is why shipping is closed off to the Palestinian protostate.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I'm not bothered about what "people want" (whoever those "people" are) I am bothered about what the only people who can do anything about the situation do i.e. the Israelis.

And the Israeli response to Palestinian terrorism is to seal the borders/coastline/airport so that it makes it very difficult for the terrorists to operate. It only takes one terrorist to get through to cause many casualties. Like suicide bombing a fallafel stand in Tel Aviv.

Israel should deal with Israeli problems which means more or less means what happens within its own borders not the problems of another nation (or in this case proto-nation). (With my normal caveats of course.)

But if that "proto-nation" refuses to aknowledge your exsistence, refuses to renounce terrorism and allows known and designated terrorist organizations a safe harbor then it becomes Israel's problem... since that "proto-nation" borders the west and east of Israel.

 

[Darat]

And the Israeli response to Palestinian terrorism is to seal the borders/coastline/airport so that it makes it very difficult for the terrorists to operate. It only takes one terrorist to get through to cause many casualties. Like suicide bombing a fallafel stand in Tel Aviv.

If it was the Israeli boarder I would have no problem with them sealing them however as far as I am aware the coastline in question is not part of what Israel considers is its coastline? Or am I confused and you are talking about a part of the coastline that is part of what Israeli considers to be its territory?

But if that "proto-nation" refuses to aknowledge your exsistence, refuses to renounce terrorism and allows known and designated terrorist organizations a safe harbor then it becomes Israel's problem... since that "proto-nation" borders the west and east of Israel.

I have already explained - any nation is (as far as I am concerned) entitled to protect itself from direct attacks, and it I was an Israeli I would want to know that the money poured into the defence of Israel was being well spent and any attacks on Israeli territory would result in immediate retaliation against the direct attacker.

 

[Manny]

I have already explained - any nation is (as far as I am concerned) entitled to protect itself from direct attacks, and it I was an Israeli I would want to know that the money poured into the defence of Israel was being well spent and any attacks on Israeli territory would result in immediate retaliation against the direct attacker.

The direct attacker ususally dies in the attack.

 

[Darat]

The direct attacker ususally dies in the attack.

I presume you are referring to suicide bombers? I was referring more to examples such as the continuing mortar and rocket attacks Hamas have been engaged in since the elections.