Meat Vegans and the like quick question....

[luchog]

That seemed to me a good example of some quite sensible sounding information. I have been trying to educate myself in this area, but am having a hard time finding my way around.
For health reasons I really need to make changes to my diet, but I am finding that the subject matter is a real woo-woo minefield. Even the supposedly authoritative sources appear to frequently contradict each other.
I am not looking to the group for dietary advice, per se, but rather some help in finding good sources of such. Recommendations for good books, for example, or sensible web sites.
Note that I have no philosophical objection to eating tasty animals, I'm looking at this purely from a health point of view.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

There is a lot of woo-woo and outdated information on both sides, pro- and anti-, and it can be hard to wade through at times.

The best thing to do for research is just get some good medical sources for info on necessities; and use FDA or similar government or academic sources for average nutritional content of various foodstuffs, and average daily intake requirements for various substances (amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc.).

Again, it's really not rocket science; although you can certain turn it into that if you want. The best way to do it is to have soy products (that are not heavily processed) as the base staple of your diet; or if you're too sensitive to soy, just about any grain/legume combination will work just as well. You won't need to eat more of the staple than you do meat, and probably considerably less, since normal protein requirements are not that high -- moreso if you're pregnant, hypoglycemic or diabetic, or have other disorders which require a higher protein intake -- and Americans typically eat several times their daily requirement. Make sure to get a varied diet of fruits and vegetables; at least some fresh, as heat can break down certain vitamins (mostly C and some B) -- moreso if you use any substances that deplete vitamins (such as tobacco, coffee, and alcohol). If you're on a completely vegan diet, then you'll need a B12 supplement; but otherwise it's not necessary, since dairy and fish contain more than adequate levels of the vitamin. Essential fatty acids are available from a huge number of different sources, so they're not an issue at all.

It really is that simple.

The problem most vegans have had in the past is not necessarily a vegan diet; but the fact that most of them were also on some sort of fad diet as well, such as macrobiotics, "raw food", or similar diets that de-emphasized legumes and grain, and therefore lacked adequate protein sources.

The days of the scrawny, weak, sickly vegan stereotype are effectively over, though a few still exist due to the aforementioned dietary fads. Most of the vegans I know are, in fact, very healthy, or even overweight; the latter due mostly to their consumption of "vegan" junk foods containing large amounts of either hydrogenated oils, or vegetable oils naturally high in saturated fats, like Palm or Coconut.

Eating meat is far from a necessity. The strong reliance on meat as a primary staple in the Anglo-American diet is strictly cultural, a holdover from the days when a meat-heavy diet was a status symbol, a sign of wealth.

 

[El_Spectre]

Eating meat is far from a necessity. The strong reliance on meat as a primary staple in the Anglo-American diet is strictly cultural, a holdover from the days when a meat-heavy diet was a status symbol, a sign of wealth.

Yes yes, those of us who choose to maintain the diet for which we evolved are clearly backwards snobs...

 

[Mongrel]

For health reasons I really need to make changes to my diet, but I am finding that the subject matter is a real woo-woo minefield. Even the supposedly authoritative sources appear to frequently contradict each other.
I am not looking to the group for dietary advice, per se, but rather some help in finding good sources of such. Recommendations for good books, for example, or sensible web sites.

Is there anything in particular you need to be looking out for in this changed diet or are you just trying to eat healthier?

 

[jon]

Originally Posted by luchog View Original87:
Eating meat is far from a necessity. The strong reliance on meat as a primary staple in the Anglo-American diet is strictly cultural, a holdover from the days when a meat-heavy diet was a status symbol, a sign of wealth.

Yes yes, those of us who choose to maintain the diet for which we evolved are clearly backwards snobs...

I'm sure luchog can speak for him/herself, but I don't think that saying eating meat is a hangover from when it was a status symbol is saying that eating meat is due to snobbery. It used to be the case that white bread was associated with wealth (brown bread was a fair bit cheaper) but now that white bread is so cheap if anything it's eating 'whole grain' bread that has become a status symbol... Perhaps something similar can be said for eating/not eating meat?

Surely we've evolved so that we can live off a wide range of diets - ranging from diets with lots of meat to diets with no meat?

 

[luchog]

I'm sure luchog can speak for him/herself, but I don't think that saying eating meat is a hangover from when it was a status symbol is saying that eating meat is due to snobbery. It used to be the case that white bread was associated with wealth (brown bread was a fair bit cheaper) but now that white bread is so cheap if anything it's eating 'whole grain' bread that has become a status symbol... Perhaps something similar can be said for eating/not eating meat?

Yes, in fact, what used to be considered "peasant food" is now becoming something of a status symbol among certain socio-economic classes, mainly do the "organic" lable, and being available at much higher prices at specialty shops and co-ops. That, and it's generally healthier than the typically overprocessed food that used to be evidence of wealth.

Plus, Jon is making a great effort to ignore the qualifier "primary staple" in my previous post. Once you take that into account, his "snob" comment becomes a ridiculous non sequitor. He also seems to have completely ignored the other "status symbols" that historically resulted from a meat-heavy luxury diet - gout, heart disease, obesity, adult-onset diabeties, and so on.

Surely we've evolved so that we can live off a wide range of diets - ranging from diets with lots of meat to diets with no meat?

Yup. The problem too many anti-vegetarians seem to make is that "can" does not necessarily equal "should". We can survive on a number of different types of diets; but not all of them are ideal for maintaining optimum health and well-being. Of course, the mistake that many vegetarians, and especially ethical vegetarians and vegans, make is that there is no single optimal diet for everyone. What could be considered an optimal diet varies strongly between individuals. I personally cannot eat meat, I cannot digest it well. I have a friend who has to eat it, he cannot maintain health without it. Most people fall in between those extremes; and in general, can do quite well on a predominantly vegetarian diet.

 

[El_Spectre]

Once you take that into account, his "snob" comment becomes a ridiculous non sequitor.

hey hey... I want credit for my hyperbole, I was the one who said that

 

[yanit]

Yes, in fact, what used to be considered "peasant food" is now becoming something of a status symbol among certain socio-economic classes, mainly do the "organic" lable, and being available at much higher prices at specialty shops and co-ops.

I recall leafing through one of those new-agey lifestyle magazines and seeing an article about what it called "heritage vegetables" which it said were organic, non-genetically modified veggies grown from plants that were native to their particular areas. The accompanying photos showed tomatoes that were smaller and odd-shaped, and kind of red on one side and more yellow-green on another. There were smaller, dried out-looking pumpkins too, and sickly-looking ears of corn. The article said that although these "heritage vegetables" didn't look like much, and cost a bit more to boot, they were healthier because they were (again) organic, non-genetically modified veggies grown from plants that were native to their particular areas.

The funny thing is that the pics of the vegetables in question looked a lot like the vegetables I sometimes see in the wet markets back in the Philippines, where I grew up. Basically veggies that had been grown in poor soil, with little or no fertilizer, that had been picked before they were ready, and transported to the cities on long journeys in non-climate controlled trucks. It struck me as hilarious that new-agey westerners were paying premium prices at health food stores to buy what people in poorer countries view as sub-par. I have nothing against organic food (well, except maybe the price of it) and do think its a bad idea to use chemical pesticides and chemical fertilizers. But I also think organic greens can (and should) look fresh and healthy!

On my next visit back home after that, I told my mother (who is a nutritionist) about it and we had a laugh.

 

[yanit]

Another amusing story ...

Last year I went to Koh Samui, Thailand, on holiday. I had been there once before and knew from previous experience that Samui is the Asian capital of woo*. I stayed at a place where I was inexplicably surrounded by lots and lots of young women from the Canadian Pacific Northwest. They were pleasant enough, but all very, very woo-ish.

One afternoon, at the buffet table (all meals at this place were buffet-style, and "healthy vegetarian" -- their words, not mine), there was a dish on offer that looked like flat white rice noodles that had a brownish tinge to it. Curious, I took a little onto my plate and tasted it.

"What is it?" asked one of my fellow guests.

My face full of bewilderment, I said, "It's rice noodles ... with soy sauce." That's all it was. Just plain rice noodles with soy sauce dribbled on it. What the heck ...?

"Oh, soy!" she exclaimed, happily heaping some on her plate. "Mmm, I love soy, it's so good for you!"

I wanted to take her by the shoulders and shake her and say "It's soy sauce, you dope! It's full of sodium and MSG and god knows what else and it's not good for you!"

But I had been there for 2 weeks by that time and knew it was pointless.


*The North American capital, of course, is Vancouver, BC.

 

[jon]

In terms of 'heritage' veg, the term sometimes seems to be used in the US to just describe unusual (even if conventionally grown) breeds of fruit/veg. This can mean you get unusually nice food (for example, 'tiger' tomatoes are esp sweet if grown properly) but yeah, I'm sure claims about health benefits don't stand up, and some places do seem to use the label as an excuse to sell sickly fruit (or breeds that aren't often grown now, for good reasons). Can also be used as an excuse to raise prices - russet apples (which are pretty cheap and ubiquitous here in the UK) seem to be sold in parts of the US as an eye-wateringly expensive 'heritage' crop

 

[deadrose]

Can also be used as an excuse to raise prices - russet apples (which are pretty cheap and ubiquitous here in the UK) seem to be sold in parts of the US as an eye-wateringly expensive 'heritage' crop

But if you've ever tasted the primary apple crop in the US, the Red Delicious apple, you'd know why those russets are fetching such a price.

Luckily now that people are discovering what apples actually taste like, 'varietal' sales are increasing to the point that orchardists are ripping out their Red Delicious trees as fast as they can. Good riddance!

Heidi, who spent her childhood living in the "Apple Capital of the World" (Wenatchee, Washington)

 

[epepke]

Yup. The problem too many anti-vegetarians seem to make is that "can" does not necessarily equal "should". We can survive on a number of different types of diets; but not all of them are ideal for maintaining optimum health and well-being. Of course, the mistake that many vegetarians, and especially ethical vegetarians and vegans, make is that there is no single optimal diet for everyone. What could be considered an optimal diet varies strongly between individuals. I personally cannot eat meat, I cannot digest it well. I have a friend who has to eat it, he cannot maintain health without it. Most people fall in between those extremes; and in general, can do quite well on a predominantly vegetarian diet.

Quite true, except that many vegetarians fall into this trap, too.

Another factor is that going for a while on a sub-optimal diet does things to your brain. Since the brain is what controls what you eat, this can become problematic.

 

[jon]

But if you've ever tasted the primary apple crop in the US, the Red Delicious apple, you'd know why those russets are fetching such a price.

Yeah, you do seem to get lots of things like macoun, cortland etc as well, and definitely the less watery red deliciouses the better The thing that struck me with the russets was that they were taking a perfectly commercial crop, and then selling it for much more than other varietal apples as 'heritage' fruit (presumably cause its skin is, well, russet and a bit uneven...)

 

[Pastor Bentonit]

I used to be on the extreme opposite - a meat-heavy low-carb lifestyle, for over two years. I never had any health problems, and got quite trim eating my favorite steak dishes loaded with spices, sour cream, cream cheese, three types of other cheese, and vegetables, eating tuna fish for lunch and snapper at dinner on occasions - but it isn't for everyone.

1) After half a week of eating only meat, a metabolic condition called lipolysis, which has noticable side-effects, occurs, starting with the onset of a headache, then quickly tapers off. Many people enjoy this state, as you never encounter a chemical crapshoot of sugars, carbs, and fats that cause fatigue, discomfort, and mind fog. Assuming you eat well, you feel the same all the time - clear, balanced, and with a regulatable energy level.

2) Unlike a carbohydrate rich diet, you gain energy immediately upon eating - and lose it rapidly upon not eating for long periods.

3) If you consume more than 25 grams of carbohydrate one day, you'll have to re-enter lipolysis again, which means another light 12 hour headache.

4) You generally drop a lot of weight without much muscle mass lost, and combined with exercise, this can occur very, very rapidly.

5) It's only for people who enjoy a carnivorous, rich and organic lifestyle. For most, the psychological load will be too unpleasant.

Hey! I did that too, for about 12 weeks, until the stomach (almost literally) cr*pped out on me. Seems I can´t enter the ketogenic (lipolysis) state again without being very close to a toilet. OTOH, a banana cures that almost instantly. I give you that though, it was a pretty good weight-loss program (together with weight training).