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The relationship between science and materialism

Geoff, please repost the proof. It might help to get us back on track. I cannot remember the issue with P1 and P2 both being physical, either.

~~ Paul
 
So I lied.

About what?

Are you sure about this? You've put the mind in the Neutral, if I recall correctly. A physicalist could just declare the Neutral to be the physical and he would have minds. What would be missing is whatever you've put in Being.

A neutral entity can't be "physical", because neutral means non-physical. There's two claims you might be making here:

Claim 1) There's no need for a noumenal realm at all. The objects of your experience are also their own causes. i.e. it is the brain you see in the mirror which is creating your experiences of a brain in a mirror. P1=P2 Is that the position you want to defend? I think it is easy to show it doesn't work. Claiming things can be the cause of themselves is something usually reserved for arguments about God.

Claim 2) There is a "noumenal world", but the things in it happen to be physical. In which case I need you to define what you mean by this.

It sure would be helpful if you would post your proof again, using whatever definitions you/we decided upon the last time. I can't even remember them.

You want me to construct a proof against physicalism, using the last set of terms you offered? OK, I'll look back and see if I can find them.

Geoff
 
Geoff said:
You've left out subjectivity.

Subjectivity is not the combination of attention and understanding. For a start, the understanding isn't needed. My cat understands little, but I reckon he's concious. So that just leaves attention, and as you said - the traffic camera has this.
I don't think subjectivity is the issue. A worm has subjective view. It makes sense to say "from the worm's point of view ...". The issue seems to be some sort of essence of the subject, or the aware subject, or the self-aware subject, or the conscious subject. The word subject seems to me to be rigged.

The question: Is it possible to have self-aware, conscious experiences without having a separate subject?

~~ Paul
 
Geoff said:
About what?
Retiring from this thread.

A neutral entity can't be "physical", because neutral means non-physical. There's two claims you might be making here:
I'm not making any claim, I'm asking a question. If I recall correctly, you put mind in the noumenal. If we then discard Being and say that noumenal is all there is, we still have minds. The physicalist could just declare noumenal = physical (just a name change) and have a physical world with minds. What would be missing would be whatever you have in Being.

You want me to construct a proof against physicalism, using the last set of terms you offered? OK, I'll look back and see if I can find them.
I want you to repeat your proof from page 4 or wherever it is, plus any changes you might have made along the way.

~~ Paul
 
Geoff retires from thread and board in protest against the suspension of Q-Source.

Since Q-Source seems to have been banned for no good reason, and since I stated that I would retire from this board completely if that happened, nobody is going to have to put up with this particular philosopher any more. It is my fault she got banned and I think the banning is petty and stupid.

:czpdoff:

I will return if and when she is re-instated.
 
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Wrong, you didn't understand the proof. You can define physical to refer to both. That just leads to a contradiction somewhere else.

(No more Geoff. Oh well. I shall reply anyway).

That certainly isn't evident from what Geoff posted. Not to me at any rate.

Kevin, I really cannot be bothered to listen to you whine on about how I nothing was demonstrated when you understand neither my position nor your own.

I have asked you several times to provide some definitions so I can demonstrate the proof to you. You can't do it. But you DO keep making pronouncements.

My belief is that I understand Geoff's position too well for him to bluff me, which is the root of his problem, and why he keeps trying to divert me into setting up something for him to try to knock down.

Figuring out what philosophy undergrads like Geoff are on about is, after all, one of the things I get paid for.

You *SOUND* intelligent, Kevin. But there's never any real content. Just unfounded uninformed claims.

Geoff is projecting his own problems on to me, I'm afraid.

This is just great Kevin. Stick to the Mr Men books. :rolleyes:

Remarks like this make me feel that it is no great tragedy Geoff that has left us.
 
Then we'll see you in a week, Geoff, because Q_source/Mary Dennett has only been suspended. The reason is a breach of rule 7.

~~ Paul
 
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I seem to remember a time when there weren't any rules on this forum. Looks like since then it has turned into a branch of local government.

Since she has only been temporarily suspended, and not banned, I will continue to post. Sorry to disappoint those who were looking forward to my departure.

I still have a week of my holidays to go. After that I have some serious work to do.
 
Then we better get busy, because we only have a week!

There have been so many problems with sockpuppets that we have to enforce a one human/one account policy. We are currently evaluating the possibility of allowing apes to register. The results of this thread may help us decide. :D

~~ Paul
 
Proof against physicalism, slightly elaborated but basically the same as before.

Section 1, demonstration that the objects of perception cannot also be external objects:

This is taken from the argument from hallucination against direct realism. If you have a brain in a vat which is hooked up to a computer and being fed signals simulating those which occur during normal perception, then there will be subjective experiences associated with this brain. Some of those experiences will be experiences of objects in a spatial world. Let’s say the BIV Is being fed a simulated version of sitting in front of a mirror with the top half of its skull removed, so it can see a brain. THAT brain cannot possibly be the same as the “real brain” that is the cause of the experiences. Why? Because the “real brain” is in a vat.

Section 2, main body of proof:

Definitions:

Physicalism: The claim that the only reality is physical reality.
P1) Your experiences of objects (like chairs/brains) ("subjective experiences") P1 refers to the brain in the mirror from the above example.
P2) The external things which cause you to have experiences of objects ("external stimuli"). P2 refers to the brain in the vat from the above example.

Premise (A): P1 and P2 are not the same thing and should not be confused. The brain in the mirror cannot be the brain in the vat.
Premise (B) : P1 and P2 account for everything which exists.

The proof now rests on the potential ways of defining "physical" with respect to P1 and P2.

(C) Physical is (P1):

If "physical" is defined as (P1) then there is a reality which isn't physical - the world of causes - the world of P2.

Conclusion: Physicalism is false.

(D) Physical is (P2):

If “physical” is defined as (P2) then there is a reality which isn’t physical – the world of experiences – the world of P1 – otherwise known as the mental realm.

Conclusion: Physicalism is false.

(E) Physical is both (P1 and P2):

Since this is the option people challenged before, it is going to need further explanation. The defence which was offered was as follows:

Premise: physicalism is true
Therefore, both P1 and P2 must be physical.
Conclusion : Physicalism is true.

What’s wrong with this?

First problem : It’s completely circular. It assumes its conclusion.
Second problem : It leads to the logical conclusion that there are two physical brains:

Even if you are going to claim that P1 and P2 are both, in some way, “physical”, you cannot claim that both of them are “physical objects”. If you do that then you have got two different physical brains in the example of the brain in the vat. One of those physical brains is in the vat and one of those physical brains is sat in front of a mirror. But if there are two physical brains, shouldn’t there be two sets of experiences? How can you fix this? It looks like you are going to have to define one of the brains as not being physical. This is the only way to avoid the conclusion that there are two physical brains – one in a vat and one in front of a mirror. But doing this is a direct contradiction of the claim that both P1 and P2 are physical. I need a term for whichever brain is not a physical brain.

Conclusion (just as before): Physicalism can’t even be specified without a contradiction and is therefore false.

(F) Physical cannot be defined in terms of (P1) and (P2):

Combined with premise (B), we are now saying that amongst the entire class of things which exist there is nothing we can meaningfully define as “physical”.

Conclusion: “Physical” doesn’t refer to anything at all, physicalism is false.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have now explored all the logically possible ways of defining “physical”, given P1 and P2. All of them lead to the conclusion that physicalism is false. And we haven't even mentioned "brain processes", so they are irrelevant to the proof. Nothing you can say about them makes any difference to THIS proof. The only way to escape it is to argue for eliminativism, and this would take the form of denying that P1 refers to anything at all (NOT that P1 is the same as P2, because that would be (E) and it's incoherent, as the eliminativists know only too well).
 
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You've left out subjectivity.

Subjectivity is not the combination of attention and understanding.

OK, let's go back to the beginning again. I asked you what a subject was and got two answers -- the viewpoint and awareness. So I asked if the subject was really the viewpoint since I can see the viewpoint as simply being the perspective from "inside" an action as opposed to the outside, third-person view describing an action. So, in a sense a computer has a first-person sort of viewpoint without there actually being a person in there. It is simply the difference between the description of an action, which is third person and the action itself, which is first-person. Granted, we lack the proper words here, and I am not looking to create a "person" in a computer with this. It is the view that interests me. So from where I stand, what I think is important to subjectivity is awareness. That is the part that is not easily explainable. The viewpoint seems to be easily explainable, since everything that acts seems to have multiple viewpoints, even if there is no viewer involved inside a computer's actions. Or another way of speaking it, I suppose, would be to say that the action is "action-in-itself" which can be described from the third person account, but cannot be completely "grasped" by that description because the description is not the experience of the action. In a computer, there is no proper "experience" of an action because there is no experiencer, but there is action, a happening, which equally cannot be accounted for fully by a description. I keep using the word "action" because that is how I conceive it -- why I kept referring to all this as "verbs". Mercutio's way of saying the same thing is to refer to behavior. In this case, there is a private* behavior in the computer -- calculation -- that no third person account, observation, can completely capture. Does that make sense?

* I realize the word "private" is loaded with associations and I do not mean it as a way of sneaking anything else in. I am only trying to sort out this view of action/behavior as differentiated from third-person accounts.
 
the objects of perception cannot also be external objects

I haven't read anything of the body of what you wrote below this yet, but I cannot accept the general formulation. There are no "objects of perception" if you refer to what goes on in the brain as separate from seen things. That is dualism talk.

We can't give perceptions a new ontologic status. The representations refer not to entities but to ways of knowing. This is more of an epistemic concern than an ontologic one, whatever you say underneath. Hallucinations are representations and present us with information. That information can be wrong, but the representation is not "an object of perception", not a new thing.
 
I haven't read anything of the body of what you wrote below this yet, but I cannot accept the general formulation. There are no "objects of perception" if you refer to what goes on in the brain as separate from seen things. That is dualism talk.

We can't give perceptions a new ontologic status. The representations refer not to entities but to ways of knowing. This is more of an epistemic concern than an ontologic one, whatever you say underneath. Hallucinations are representations and present us with information. That information can be wrong, but the representation is not "an object of perception", not a new thing.

Then what is it?

Are you going to say "a brain process" by any chance?

If so, can you anticipate what my reply is going to be?
 
Whatever it is, this is what I mean by "subject".

That is what we are trying to get at. If we cannot agree on a definition, do we really know what we are talking about here?

So, again, I ask what does it mean to be a subject? Is it awareness from a perspective or something else? Is there something left out of that account, or does awareness from a point of view cover it?

What I meant about a computer not having an "experiencer" was that while a computer acting consititutes a sort of viewpoint (the computer doesn't have a viewpoint, but the action/behavior constitutes a viewpoint that cannot be reduced to a third-person account), it does not have awareness. Put awareness in there and you seem to have a subject -- awareness from a point of view.
 
Then what is it?

No "is". No dualism talk. Perceiving. It is a verb. Or in Mercutio's terms, it is private behavior. I don't like using nouns, though, because I think that tends to make us think of "things" -- new objects, new ontologic stuff.
 
Geoff said:
Since this is the option people challenged before, it is going to need further explanation. The defence which was offered was as follows:

Premise: physicalism is true
Therefore, both P1 and P2 must be physical.
Conclusion : Physicalism is true.
Where did that premise come from? It should be:

(E) Physical is both (P1 and P2)

[some reason why this cannot be the case]

Conclusion: Physicalism is false.

Even if you are going to claim that P1 and P2 are both, in some way, “physical”, you cannot claim that both of them are “physical objects”. If you do that then you have got two different physical brains in the example of the brain in the vat.
No, I wouldn't claim that the BIV's perception of itself in the mirror is a physical object.

But doing this is a direct contradiction of the claim that both P1 and P2 are physical.
Why? No one suggests that my perception of an object is a physical object. The suggestion is that the perception is a physical process. Physicalism doesn't rule out processes, does it? I see nothing in your argument that doesn't apply to the distinction between a computer and computation.

We have now explored all the logically possible ways of defining “physical”, given P1 and P2. All of them lead to the conclusion that physicalism is false. And we haven't even mentioned "brain processes", so they are irrelevant to the proof. Nothing you can say about them makes any difference to THIS proof. The only way to escape it is to argue for eliminativism, and this would take the form of denying that P1 refers to anything at all (NOT that P1 is the same as P2, because that would be (E) and it's incoherent, as the eliminativists know only too well).
I see no reason why P1 refers to nothing at all. However, if you would break down exactly what P1 is, we could explore each thing individually. My unanswered question is relevant to this:

I'm not making any claim, I'm asking a question. If I recall correctly, you put mind in the noumenal. If we then discard Being and say that noumenal is all there is, we still have minds. The physicalist could just declare noumenal = physical (just a name change) and have a physical world with minds. What would be missing would be whatever you have in Being.


~~ Paul
 
No "is". No dualism talk. Perceiving. It is a verb.

But that doesn't work. It doesn't work because you've already got a physical name for the actions of the brain - "brain activity". In which case "subjective experiences" has no referent. I think we have been here before. You've introduced the term "subjective experience" (or something like that) but you've not introduced any new referent. So how do you justify the introduction of the new term without "begging the question"?
 
No, I wouldn't claim that the BIV's perception of itself in the mirror is a physical object.

This sentence is incoherent. Do you mean "the BIV's perception of a brain in the mirror is not a physical object"?

If so, what is it?***

***Beware of introducing new terms to refer to the BIV's perception of a brain in the mirror if those terms already refer to something else which is not the BIV's perception of a brain in the mirror. If you were to do this then I'd need yet another new term to distinguish the brain in the mirror from this other thing. I need a term for the brain in the mirror which is not already a term for something else (like brain processes).

Why? No one suggests that my perception of an object is a physical object.

Lot's of people are suggesting exactly that.

The suggestion is that the perception is a physical process.

See ***

Physicalism doesn't rule out processes, does it? I see nothing in your argument that doesn't apply to the distinction between a computer and computation.

See ***

I see no reason why P1 refers to nothing at all. However, if you would break down exactly what P1 is, we could explore each thing individually. My unanswered question is relevant to this:

I'm not making any claim, I'm asking a question. If I recall correctly, you put mind in the noumenal. If we then discard Being and say that noumenal is all there is, we still have minds.

No, this is a misunderstanding of how brains and minds map in to the noumenal. They both map in to the noumenal but they may in to different positions. The only way there can be two different positions for them to map into is if Being is included in the noumenal. That way, minds can be distinguished from brain processes. Your way, they can't.

The physicalist could just declare noumenal = physical (just a name change)....

But a critically important name change because now you cannot use the term "physical object" for the objects of your perception and you are going to have to call them something else. You want to call them "brain processes". At this point see ***.
 
has no referent. I think we have been here before.

Yes, we've been here before and I am hoping this time that you will sit long enough before jumping off to all sorts of conclusions.

Much of this has been explained to you, but you won't accept the answers. So, let's try again.

There are referents and there are referents. The sentence, "The unicorn ron over the fence to fetch daisies." has no real referent because there is no such thing as a unicorn. But it does have a referent because we do have a concept of unicorns.

There is a referent to the behavior of perceiving in your example above. It is me. I perceive. What we must try to uncover is whether or not I exist. Obviously there is some thing here that we seem to call "me", so I guess I exist. But that doesn't mean that all the things I think about me are actually true in an ontological sense. If we reduce down to the level of what happens in the brain/body we may arrive at the proposition that the referent is my body. My body perceives. There is a referent. The question is whether or not that makes sense. If would please stop jumping the gun and saying that it doesn't perhaps we could make progress?

May we return to the discussion we were having before?
 

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