Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
- Messages
- 19,141
Geoff, please repost the proof. It might help to get us back on track. I cannot remember the issue with P1 and P2 both being physical, either.
~~ Paul
~~ Paul
So I lied.
Are you sure about this? You've put the mind in the Neutral, if I recall correctly. A physicalist could just declare the Neutral to be the physical and he would have minds. What would be missing is whatever you've put in Being.
It sure would be helpful if you would post your proof again, using whatever definitions you/we decided upon the last time. I can't even remember them.
I don't think subjectivity is the issue. A worm has subjective view. It makes sense to say "from the worm's point of view ...". The issue seems to be some sort of essence of the subject, or the aware subject, or the self-aware subject, or the conscious subject. The word subject seems to me to be rigged.Geoff said:You've left out subjectivity.
Subjectivity is not the combination of attention and understanding. For a start, the understanding isn't needed. My cat understands little, but I reckon he's concious. So that just leaves attention, and as you said - the traffic camera has this.
Retiring from this thread.Geoff said:About what?
I'm not making any claim, I'm asking a question. If I recall correctly, you put mind in the noumenal. If we then discard Being and say that noumenal is all there is, we still have minds. The physicalist could just declare noumenal = physical (just a name change) and have a physical world with minds. What would be missing would be whatever you have in Being.A neutral entity can't be "physical", because neutral means non-physical. There's two claims you might be making here:
I want you to repeat your proof from page 4 or wherever it is, plus any changes you might have made along the way.You want me to construct a proof against physicalism, using the last set of terms you offered? OK, I'll look back and see if I can find them.

Wrong, you didn't understand the proof. You can define physical to refer to both. That just leads to a contradiction somewhere else.
Kevin, I really cannot be bothered to listen to you whine on about how I nothing was demonstrated when you understand neither my position nor your own.
I have asked you several times to provide some definitions so I can demonstrate the proof to you. You can't do it. But you DO keep making pronouncements.
You *SOUND* intelligent, Kevin. But there's never any real content. Just unfounded uninformed claims.
This is just great Kevin. Stick to the Mr Men books.![]()
You've left out subjectivity.
Subjectivity is not the combination of attention and understanding.
In a computer, there is no proper "experience" of an action because there is no experiencer....
the objects of perception cannot also be external objects
I haven't read anything of the body of what you wrote below this yet, but I cannot accept the general formulation. There are no "objects of perception" if you refer to what goes on in the brain as separate from seen things. That is dualism talk.
We can't give perceptions a new ontologic status. The representations refer not to entities but to ways of knowing. This is more of an epistemic concern than an ontologic one, whatever you say underneath. Hallucinations are representations and present us with information. That information can be wrong, but the representation is not "an object of perception", not a new thing.
Whatever it is, this is what I mean by "subject".
Then what is it?
Where did that premise come from? It should be:Geoff said:Since this is the option people challenged before, it is going to need further explanation. The defence which was offered was as follows:
Premise: physicalism is true
Therefore, both P1 and P2 must be physical.
Conclusion : Physicalism is true.
No, I wouldn't claim that the BIV's perception of itself in the mirror is a physical object.Even if you are going to claim that P1 and P2 are both, in some way, “physical”, you cannot claim that both of them are “physical objects”. If you do that then you have got two different physical brains in the example of the brain in the vat.
Why? No one suggests that my perception of an object is a physical object. The suggestion is that the perception is a physical process. Physicalism doesn't rule out processes, does it? I see nothing in your argument that doesn't apply to the distinction between a computer and computation.But doing this is a direct contradiction of the claim that both P1 and P2 are physical.
I see no reason why P1 refers to nothing at all. However, if you would break down exactly what P1 is, we could explore each thing individually. My unanswered question is relevant to this:We have now explored all the logically possible ways of defining “physical”, given P1 and P2. All of them lead to the conclusion that physicalism is false. And we haven't even mentioned "brain processes", so they are irrelevant to the proof. Nothing you can say about them makes any difference to THIS proof. The only way to escape it is to argue for eliminativism, and this would take the form of denying that P1 refers to anything at all (NOT that P1 is the same as P2, because that would be (E) and it's incoherent, as the eliminativists know only too well).
No "is". No dualism talk. Perceiving. It is a verb.
No, I wouldn't claim that the BIV's perception of itself in the mirror is a physical object.
Why? No one suggests that my perception of an object is a physical object.
The suggestion is that the perception is a physical process.
Physicalism doesn't rule out processes, does it? I see nothing in your argument that doesn't apply to the distinction between a computer and computation.
I see no reason why P1 refers to nothing at all. However, if you would break down exactly what P1 is, we could explore each thing individually. My unanswered question is relevant to this:
I'm not making any claim, I'm asking a question. If I recall correctly, you put mind in the noumenal. If we then discard Being and say that noumenal is all there is, we still have minds.
The physicalist could just declare noumenal = physical (just a name change)....
has no referent. I think we have been here before.